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Contents
Living Blindfully to Cease Publication at the End of September 2
Special Apple Coverage Coming Up. 5
OrCam Says It’s Committed to the Blind and Low Vision Market 6
Abuse of Power. Censorship From Vision Australia. 8
Listener Thoughts on the Blindness Agency Leadership Crisis. 15
Welcome to 298
[music]
Voiceover: From Wellington, New Zealand, to the world, it’s Living Blindfully – living your best life with blindness or low vision. Here is your host, Jonathan Mosen.
Hello!
On the show this week, Living Blindfully will cease publication at the end of September, OrCam says it’s committed to its blindness products, more on the global blindness agency leadership crisis, and we talk employment with the co-chairs of the National Federation of the Blind’s Employment Committee.
We’ve made it to episode 298 this week, and there is a corresponding country code, which is the Faroe Islands. I believe that’s how you say it. It’s a Danish territory located in the Atlantic Ocean.
They’ve got about 50,000 people there so a pretty small population, and a lot of them are what we used to call fishermen. But now, they’re called fishers, I think to make sure that we’re gender inclusive, which is fair enough. Fisher folk, maybe.
Anyway, a lot of salmon going on in the Faroe Islands. And I, as my kids would say, am down with that because I love a good salmon.
So if anyone’s listening from the Faroe Islands who’d like me to come and give a talk or something so I can sample the salmon, then be in touch, you know. It sounds glorious.
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Living Blindfully to Cease Publication at the End of September
To start this episode, I have some news. What I’d like to do is give you the essential facts for those who may like to skip the rest of this segment, but then I’ll give you the more detailed explanation you deserve.
Living Blindfully will cease publication at the end of September. All the remaining Living Blindfully episodes will be made public to everyone without the 72-hour advanced publication for Living Blindfully plus subscribers.
Living Blindfully plus subscriptions made via Apple Podcasts will be cancelled immediately. When your next subscription payment would be due, you’ll receive a refund for the time between when the subscription was cancelled and when your payment was due. If you opted for a yearly subscription, this means it will be some time before you see your refund, but you will receive it. Apple handles all matters pertaining to payments according to their terms and conditions.
Most of our Living Blindfully plus subscribers have subscribed through Pinecast. If you want to, you can cancel your subscription now. But please be aware that once you cancel your Living Blindfully plus subscription, to hear the remaining Living Blindfully episodes that will be published throughout September, you’ll need to subscribe to the public Living Blindfully feed through your podcast app. If you do nothing, eventually, all Living Blindfully plus subscriptions will be cancelled. We’re letting some time elapse to give people a chance to subscribe to the public feed, so they can hear the few remaining episodes and not have their listening disrupted.
Since Living Blindfully is winding down, as of now, we will no longer be accepting new listener comments via our WhatsApp, email, and phone channels. This ensures that we can get through as many of the existing contributions we’ve received as possible.
We have a lot of great interview material and product demonstrations in the can already, so you may find there are some extra episodes in September.
So, that’s the executive summary of what’s happening and what it means for you in a practical sense.
Now, let me talk from the heart and explain this move.
Coming to this decision is incredibly bittersweet for me. We just passed our 5th anniversary. If you played all the episodes back to back and didn’t sleep, you’d be listening for almost a month. That’s a lot of discussion. Many people helped, fascinating people spoken with, and products demonstrated.
I love putting Living Blindfully together as much as I always have. More so, in fact, when I took the gamble of moving to a model where we generated some revenue so I could get some help with the show. I wasn’t sure if people would just walk away.
Exactly the opposite has happened. More and more people started listening, and many more chipped in than I ever expected. I cannot thank you enough.
But to say thank you to Living Blindfully plus subscribers, at least those who have subscribed through Pinecast, I have endeavored to contact all of them before this episode went live as a courtesy to let them know that this is happening and to thank them, because I do have a lot to thank them for. Unfortunately, Apple doesn’t give me access to the email addresses of those who’ve subscribed through that method, so I haven’t been able to contact those subscribers the same way. I hope you will accept my personal profound thanks and gratitude for your support. It means an awful lot.
So if it’s all going so well and I’m not burned out, why shut it down?
If you were listening to episode 288 back in June, you’ll recall that I discussed how I resigned my position as a CEO here in New Zealand just after my 5th anniversary there. I was fortunate that if nothing else permanent came up, we’d be okay financially. And I knew that even if I just continued to work on Living Blindfully, I’d be making a difference. and making a difference is important to me.
I tend to think that when you follow your heart, when you do the right thing, the universe has a habit of sorting things out. I was quickly approached by some talent scouts, some of them with attractive offers. But in the end, I felt like I’d just be getting back into the rat race.
My next opportunity had to be extra special. I wanted something that fit my personal mission, my values, and helped me contribute to making the world a better place.
That opportunity has now come along. It’s up to the organization I’m working with to announce where I’m going, and give some indication of what I’m doing. You won’t have to wait long.
But as the news of Living Blindfully’s end sinks in, I do want to make this clear. During the negotiations that led to this new opportunity, no one at any time said, unless you give up Living Blindfully, the deal’s off. The reverse was the case.
I don’t think the word agonized would be too strong a term. We thought long and hard about whether we can make this new opportunity and Living Blindfully coexist, and I know that it can’t work.
What makes Living Blindfully work is that you get me unfiltered without any potential conflicts of interest, or any need for me to curb my remarks about certain subjects. To have the biggest impact I can in this new role, there are times when I would need to be diplomatic and circumspect because I will know things I can’t talk about. And I’ll be seeking to establish high trust relationships that will be compromized if I let rip, as talk show hosts are inclined to do.
But let me give you this cast iron assurance. If you’ve listened to the show even for a small number of episodes, you’ll know my heart. You know what drives me. You know I am a staunch defender of the rights of blind people everywhere. That’s been the case even long before I joined the consumer movement here in New Zealand as a 16-year-old, and it will always be the case as long as I have breath in my body.
And as much as I absolutely love doing this show, I know that I can make a substantially bigger difference to a much larger group of people by accepting the most exciting opportunity I’ve had in my life to date. And that’s really saying something, because I’ve been fortunate enough to work with some great people and organizations.
I understand that these sorts of changes hit the community hard, and I truly am sorry about that.
And although I will do so in our last episode, I do want to acknowledge and thank profusely Derek Lane and Hannah Mae Aldeza who have been working on Living Blindfully with me – Derek doing some audio editing, Hannah doing the marvellous transcripts. I hope that I will have the opportunity to work with them in my new role.
We’ve been meeting this way almost every week for a long time. But when you get the other piece of the puzzle, when we come back and discuss the exciting future that beckons, I like to think that most of you will agree that the sacrifice is worth it for the gains that we can make.
Yes, I’m sad, but I’m also excited. Bonnie’s excited. My kids are supportive. Some dreams are coming true. And alongside some of the best, brightest, and most dedicated people in the world, I’ll be working to make life better for us. And you have my word. I will give it everything I have.
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Special Apple Coverage Coming Up
All the way back in September 1952 (no, I wasn’t around for it, though) the Mills Brothers released a song called Glow Worm (The Glow Worm, actually, I think it’s called), and it’s been stuck in my head all week. If you haven’t heard this song before, ask your streaming music service of choice, or the tube of you, or whatever you want to play The Glow Worm by the Mills Brothers. And you, too, can have it stuck in your head. You’re welcome!
It’s been stuck in my head since Apple announced its special event on the 9th of September, a little bit earlier, a day earlier than many people were pontificating about, and it’s called It’s Glow Time. And I think this refers to the funny little glowing logo that may be wasted on a lot of the blind community who can’t see it. That’s in the new Siri in iOS 18.1.
So it sounds like there’s going to be a heavy emphasis on Apple Intelligence features. But we will also, of course, at least, hear about the new iPhones, what is in those.
And if you want to take advantage of Apple Intelligence, and particularly if you don’t have an iPhone 15 Pro, they’re going to try and make a valiant attempt at getting you to upgrade so that you can take advantage of it. So they’re going to try and make a compelling case. Let’s see if they do.
And of course, right after the event concludes, Mike Feir, Judy Dixon, Heidi Taylor – the great describer of iPhone things and I will get together, and we will record a special episode of Living Blindfully.
Now, given recent events, the good news is that there’s not going to be a 72-hour delay for you if you are not a Living Blindfully plus subscriber. So we will get that right out to everybody on the 9th of September, with lots of analysis from a blindness perspective.
And then after that, we will be doing a show that goes for at least 2 and a half hours, taking you through lots of cool features in iOS 18. We will get that out for you before iOS 18 is released.
You can skim through this. It’ll be carefully indexed by chapter. So if there are some features that don’t interest you, (for example, if you’re not a Braille user, you may not be interested in the significant revamp of Braille screen input this year), you’ll be able to skip around, get the information you want, and be familiar with things in time for the release of iOS 18.
So that’s some special programming coming up in the next couple of weeks.
OrCam Says It’s Committed to the Blind and Low Vision Market
Quite recently, there’s been a lot of discussion about the future of OrCam blindness and low vision products. This follows the publication of an article in a credible business daily, which said that many people had been laid off from OrCam because they were changing direction and focusing on people with hearing impairments.
Now, I got contacted by Peter from Quantum Technologies to tell me that obviously, they were concerned to hear about this. Quantum in Australia distribute the OrCam, and they sought clarification.
I want to read you the letter that they have sent to me, which has come from OrCam Technologies. The title of it is OrCam Technologies Strategic Approach and Product Focus. And this is what it reads:
“Dear distributors,
We would like to take this opportunity to provide an important update regarding recent discussions in the press about the restructuring at OrCam in the USA.
It is imperative for us to clarify that we are not exiting the vision business, and remain fully committed to our vision-focused products and initiatives.
The recent sales staff layoffs signify our decision to transition away from a direct-to-consumer sales model. We are strategically moving towards strengthening collaborations with single local distributors, similar to our partnership with Quantum RLV in Australia. This approach is designed to pave the way for enhanced opportunities, including more competitive pricing for our established OrCam MyEye and OrCam Read ranges, as well as facilitating the successful launch of new products. It is essential for us to assure you that OrCam remains unwavering in our commitment to supporting every aspect of production, support, and customer success for our vision-focused devices.
In addition to our dedication to the vision impairment devices, we are also venturing into new territories of innovation. After launching the OrCam Read 5 and OrCam Read 3, and with the upcoming release of the MyEye 5 with LLM services, we will shift our R&D focus to the development of OrCam Hear, an exciting new device for individuals with hearing loss. We are aiming to launch this innovative product on a global scale later this year.
OrCam’s mission to create life-changing assistive companions remains resolute. We are dedicated to empowering and enhancing the quality of life for individuals with diverse abilities, impairments, or differences on a global scale. We are genuinely grateful for the support and collaboration we receive from our trusted distributors, and we look forward to further strengthening our partnerships as we continue to pursue our shared goals and objectives.
Thank you for your continued partnership and support.”
So that comes from the chief executive of OrCam to an Australian distributor, and they are saying, we’re not dead. We’re not even resting. We are continuing to make OrCam products for blindness and low vision. We’re just simply changing the distribution model.
AppleVis Lives On
Now, we talked about the OrCam situation after seeing that Israeli business report in episode 294.
And in that very same episode, I gave some commentary on the announcement that AppleVis was to close. In that commentary, I mentioned that I was aware of several approaches that had been made that were credible that would keep AppleVis alive. And in the end, I said it was up to David Goodwin, in terms of what he chose to do with the brand. He was absolutely entitled to do whatever he chose to do with the brand.
As I’m sure most of us know by now, one of those options was deemed acceptable, and Be My Eyes will acquire the AppleVis brand, keeping the existing editorial team intact. They say they’re going to get the site back up and running on or before the 9th of September, in time for the crop of Apple operating system releases that we would expect to happen the week after that – the week starting the 16th of September.
Be My Eyes are also investing in AppleVis by hiring a couple of people to maintain it and hopefully, to expand it. That’s a good outcome.
[music]
Abuse of Power. Censorship From Vision Australia
Over the last couple of weeks, we’ve covered the decision taken by Vision Australia’s board to only look inside the organization for its next CEO, meaning that capable blind people with leadership experience but who don’t work for Vision Australia can’t apply.
A group calling itself United Blind Leaders has launched a petition which anyone can sign if they believe the Vision Australia board should change its mind. We were going to cover the petition on this week’s show anyway.
But now, things have taken a deeply concerning, and I would even suggest sinister direction. Vision Australia is using its power to censor and stifle the dissemination of information about this matter.
To talk about this, I’m joined by Vaughn Bennison who is the host of New Horizons, the radio show and podcast produced by the consumer advocacy organisation Blind Citizens Australia. Welcome, Vaughn! Good to have you on the show again.
Vaughn: Jonathan, thanks for having me.
Jonathan: I listen every week, actually, and I like the little jingle. I bounce around and get my Apple Watch goals going when the song comes on.
Vaughn: [laughs]
Jonathan: But for those who don’t listen to New Horizons, give us a bit of background about what it is.
Vaughn: Well, the background is actually very long.
It’s one of the longest running programs, If not the longest running program On Australia’s Community Broadcasting Service. It started in 1982. And in those days, Well, for the first 24 years or so, it was produced by Neville Kerr Who died last year I think it was, or the year before.
Essentially, it is a program sponsored by Blind Citizens Australia. It started out being called the NFBCA radio program. But when I took it on, One of the things that I said was that I wanted to have full independent editorial control, because New Horizons needed to be the voice of Australia’s blind community, not just the voice of Blind Citizens Australia. And so we talk about things that are relevant to the blind community, information that is useful for the blind community. And of course, we do talk a lot about what Blind Citizens Australia is doing, the services, and the peer support opportunities that it provides as well.
Jonathan: I listen to it as a podcast, but how else is it disseminated to blind Australians?
Vaughn: The interesting thing about New Horizons is that I think of it as a radio program because that’s exactly what it is. It’s always been a radio program since 1982, when it was started on 3RPH in Melbourne. It’s still broadcast through the Radio Reading Network as they call it now, which was erstwhile known as the RPH Stations.
It’s also broadcast on other Community Broadcasting Services. I think there’s about 420 community broadcasting stations in Australia.
And of course, as you say, it’s available as a podcast and goes through a lot of online radio stations as well.
Jonathan: And what influence does Vision Australia have here? Because we’re going to talk about the censorship. But how is it even possible for Vision Australia to do what they’ve done this week?
Vaughn: Vision Australia owns many of the Community Broadcasting Services known as the Radio Reading Network. So they own the Melbourne Service, they own the Adelaide Service, the Perth service, there’s a digital service in Darwin, and there are several local or regional services in country Victoria that broadcast Vision Australia programs, and they’re all owned by Vision Australia.
There are other Radio Reading Services such as Sydney, Canberra, Brisbane, and Hobart which are independently run by the local communities, as community broadcasters are expected to be.
Jonathan: This week then, obviously, there’s only one really hot topic, right? And that is the failure of Vision Australia’s board to do a proper job with the recruitment of its CEO. So it’s natural that if you’re doing a program which covers topical interests in the blind community, this is going to dominate the program. This is going to be the topic this week.
Vaughn: It’s only a 15-minute program so really, I don’t have time to cover more than one topic per week. Sometimes, that’s really problematic when there’s a lot going on. And sometimes, it’s very convenient because it gives me a really good reason to leave certain topics alone, perhaps, that I don’t particularly want to cover or whatever. But ultimately, in this instance, you’re right. This is the key topic of the week.
I wasn’t so concerned about the fact that Vision Australia wanted to do their CEO recruitment through an internal process. What I was really concerned about was, or I guess what I really wanted to focus on was the fact that the United Blind Leaders, (and in the interest of full disclosure, I am one of those) had put out the open letter to the Vision Australia board. And I thought that was worth focusing on because it’s a big community initiative. At this stage, we’ve got very close to 300 signatures, and that’s really significant for the blind community in Australia in a process like this. That’s really what I wanted to focus on – Get the word out there about the fact that people could make that decision.
I also really wanted to focus on the blind community and its view of itself. One of the points that Graeme made in the interview when I interviewed him for this week’s program was that the blind community really needed to back itself. I took that very much on board because it goes very much along the lines and the philosophy that I grew up with, and that I have developed in myself, attempted to develop in people with whom I deal on a regular basis. And that is this whole thing about the fact that there is a blind community, a blind culture, and I talk about blind pride.
We really need to understand that we are a strong community. We are a powerful community. And the blind community in Australia, (and elsewhere, of course but in particular Australia, because that’s where New Horizons really focuses) is a very strong and powerful community, and has done many amazing things on its own behalf. I’m thinking things like, for example, working on developing the first disability pension, and then what was then called the invalid pension. And when the Department of Social Security in about 1990 wanted to scrap the blind pension, the blind community got up in arms about it, and it was changed, and it has been maintained ever since.
So that’s just one example of what the blind community is able to do. And my view was that if the blind community is able to do things like that, it is able to develop self-help movements and bring people together for peer support, for mentoring, and for advocacy, then surely somebody in that community can be the next CEO of Vision Australia. And I’m deeply concerned about the view that I understand from some people that say if we mandate that Australia appoints a blind CEO, it may smack of tokenism.
I often think of disability rights. I work for a cross-disability advocacy organization, and we’re very human rights and disability rights focused. So that’s kind of where my thinking comes from.
I often think about it in terms of gender. And I often think, for example, that if I were a company that ran a women’s shelter and I decided that I needed a new CEO, would I just appoint the next bloke who comes along? No way in the world would that be allowed. So why is it OK for a disability organization to appoint a non-disabled CEO? I think that the community needs to back itself and say that is not okay.
Jonathan: If anyone’s online in Australia and connected with the blind community, they would already know about this issue long before New Horizons came out because it’s a hot topic. But there are a lot of blind people, in fact, I’d say the majority of blind people who are not online, the majority of blind people are over the age of 65, even over the age of 80. So hearing it on New Horizons via an audio information service could be the first exposure they had to the fact that Vision Australia was trying to pull this.
But Vision Australia radio stations that normally broadcast New Horizons are repeating an old program. Tell me a bit about this.
Vaughn: Vision Australia Radio Melbourne plays New Horizons at about half past 4 in the afternoon on a Wednesday. So I make sure that I get the program published very early in the morning on a Wednesday, so that it gives them plenty of time to put it into the player system.
I became aware yesterday afternoon that when New Horizons went to air, it was a repeat program.
I haven’t officially heard from Vision Australia that they’re not playing the program. I understand that there were some concerns about the program, but they’ve not reached out to me to have a discussion as to what I said in the program, what they’re unhappy with, or anything like that. So I can only assume that what’s happened is that they’ve seen the show notes which talk about the open letter, talk about the internal appointment of the CEO, and the fact that it is related to Vision Australia, and decided not to play it. I have to assume that because, as I say, Vision Australia hasn’t seen fit to reach out to me. And as far as I know, they haven’t reached out to Blind Citizens Australia either at this point.
Jonathan: When you look at the responsibility that a media outlet has in this regard, I can think of multiple examples. The BBC, for example, will report if they hit the headlines, and that often happens. You have a presenter that gets into some sort of trouble, some of it very unpleasant indeed. And they have to report on that.
You also look at other media outlets around the world that sometimes become the story. But journalistic ethics say well, we’ve got to run this. We can’t hide from this.
and it also begs the question.
Let’s say that this issue gets some mainstream media coverage. (And I’d have to suggest that the censorship of blind people’s right to freedom of expression makes it an even juicier story for any mainstream media outlet worth its salt.) One of the jobs of audio information services is to read the newspaper. And you wonder if it does get in the newspaper, say, the Melbourne Age, since we’ve been talking about Vision Australia Radio in Melbourne. Are they going to not read those stories as well?
Vaughn: I would like to hope that they wouldn’t editorialize. There is a requirement under the RPH protocols that people don’t pick the stories that they read. The only excuse for doing that is based on time.
So in reality, having been the manager of one of the services for 7 and a half years, I do get that sometimes, you have to make decisions, you put things to the back, and hope that you run out of time so you don’t have to read them. But one would hope that they wouldn’t editorialize to that extent.
I’m really actually very concerned about the reputation damage that something like this could do to the RPH sector generally, or the radio reading sector generally, let alone to Vision Australia’s own services.
Jonathan: Do you have any kind of redress? Are there any regulations that might be broken? Because this seems incredibly egregious.
Vaughn: There are the community broadcasting codes of practice. They’re currently under renewal, and have been for a considerable length of time, but they still stand in their initial form. And one of the requirements on community broadcasters is that commercial entities or large organizational entities can’t exercise undue editorial control over the broadcast service. I would suggest that that possibly breaches that particular aspect of the codes of practice.
In terms of redress, it’s difficult to argue whether anything would actually happen, and whether the ACMA, which is a regulatory authority here (Australian Communications and Media Authority) would actually act under these circumstances because their argument would be that whilst we think it’s egregious, I’m sure that there would be some excuse for why it happened.
Jonathan: Ultimately, someone has made this call. They should not have a job on Monday, right?
Vaughn: Look. If I was the CEO, I would have called that person into my office and said, “Why did you pull the program? Explain your rationale.” Would they have a job? Probably not.
Jonathan: That is serious misconduct to actually intervene in this fashion. Serious misconduct.
Vaughn: Yeah, I think it is, and I think that person should absolutely be gone.
Jonathan: So what’s going to happen if you want to cover this issue again? I mean, it’s an evolving, it’s a developing story, so there’s every likelihood that there might be something new to impart to New Horizons listeners. Are they going to ban you again?
Vaughn: [laughs] That’s a really good question. I don’t know the answer to that. We haven’t worked out what our final strategy is going to be around this just yet. But I’d like to think that Vision Australia will be sufficiently embarrassed that they won’t do that again. But who knows?
I mean, I’ve spent nearly 30 years in the broadcast industry, and this is the first time I’ve been banned. It’s almost a source of pride for me.
It’s about like when some of the famous 5 books got banned. It’s something I can’t say I’ve really gone out and thought, I want to get banned. But you know, it’s a bit of a source of achievement for me, I think.
Jonathan: There is a clear separation between matters that are operational and matters that are relating to governance. But is this something that you think the board should intervene on and say, you cannot ban the respectful freedom of expression of blind people on Vision Australia radio stations. You just cannot do that.
Vaughn: I think ultimately, the responsibility rests with the board, as it does in any operational and strategic organization. I would think that it wouldn’t need to go as far as the board. But clearly, Vision Australia is in a state of flux. They don’t have an actual CEO at this point. I don’t know the acting CEO, and I don’t know whether that person is likely to act to remedy this.
The board does have blind people involved, and some of those blind people could reasonably expect to listen to New Horizons. In fact, several of them have been guests on New Horizons in the past. So it’s reasonable to expect that the board members know about this.
If I were on that board, I would absolutely be encouraging the Chair to reach out to the CEO and say, fix this. But who knows whether that will happen at this time?
One of the things that really does concern me is that this may well change the relationship between Blind Citizens Australia and Vision Australia, so that might have to be managed very carefully.
Jonathan: Are you wanting an apology?
Vaughn: Oh, look. I don’t care from my own perspective. I care from the community’s perspective. As far as I’m concerned, it’s BCA and it’s the blind community that need an apology. I certainly don’t.
Jonathan: That’s New Horizons presenter and producer, Vaughn Bennison.
You can find New Horizons wherever, as they say, you get your podcasts.
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But partly as a source of information and partly as a signal of solidarity, I’m going to play you some of this episode that got banned by Vision Australia Radio. It contains the text of the petition, which you may wish to sign at change.org/UnitedBlindLeaders. That’s change.org/UnitedBlindLeaders. The people putting the petition together are happy for anyone in the world who believes in this cause to sign. We’ve got a large audience here, and I hope that you will consider signing it and sending a strong signal.
So here’s a little excerpt from New Horizons. You’ll hear the text of that petition. You’ll also hear some commentary from Vaughn.
[start of New Horizons excerpt]
Vaughn: It’s headed, “Open Letter to the Directors of Vision Australia Urging Open CEO Recruitment Process”. And the letter reads:
“26 August 2024
To Vision Australia directors,
We, the undersigned blind and vision-impaired individuals and our supporters, express our dismay regarding the decision to appoint a new Chief Executive Officer (CEO) through an internal Expression of Interest (EOI) process. As Australia’s largest provider of blindness services, Vision Australia has a responsibility to ensure its leadership reflects the lived experience of our community. We urge the Board to reconsider this approach and commit to an external search, prioritizing the appointment of the organization’s first blind CEO.
The final report of Australia’s Disability Royal Commission underscores the need for inclusive and representative leadership in organizations serving people with disability. It states, “Leadership should reflect the diversity of the community it serves, including the lived experiences of people with disabilities.” The report emphasizes that effective advocacy and leadership require that people with disabilities lead, ensuring their voices shape policy and service delivery.
While we acknowledge the talent within Vision Australia and its commitment to employing blind and vision-impaired staff, most work in client-facing and middle management roles, lacking the executive experience required for the CEO position. By opting for an internal EOI process, Vision Australia risks missing the opportunity to appoint an experienced, progressive leader with fresh perspectives capable of advancing the organization.
A blind CEO would not only bring invaluable lived experience but also serve as a powerful symbol of empowerment for the community. Such a leader would be uniquely positioned to address client needs, implement necessary changes, and drive the organization’s mission forward with genuine insight and authority.
Unemployment remains a significant barrier for blind and vision-impaired individuals. A 2019 World Blind Union survey found only 24% of blind Australians were in full-time employment, lagging behind countries like New Zealand and Canada. Additionally, pathways to executive leadership for blind and vision-impaired talent are limited. Appointing a blind CEO would demonstrate Vision Australia’s commitment to providing an open, inclusive process and addressing these disparities.
We appreciate the board’s intent to maintain momentum and ensure continuity. However, an external search is essential for transparency and inclusivity, especially given it has been 11.5 years since the role was last advertised. An internal EOI process may not fully capture the diverse perspectives required for effective leadership. The Disability Royal Commission called for “transparent and merit-based processes that value the perspectives of people with disabilities,” aligning with an external recruitment approach.
We respectfully urge the Vision Australia Board to revoke its decision for an internal EOI process and undertake an external search, committing to appoint a blind or vision-impaired leader as CEO. This will demonstrate the Board’s dedication to promoting the employment of blind people and meeting current expectations for disability leadership.
We hope our concerns will be considered, and we look forward to a process that reflects the principle of “nothing about us without us” and the high standards Vision Australia strives to uphold.”
And as a further reminder, if you want to sign that open letter, you can go to change.org/UnitedBlindLeaders.
I don’t want to get into the debate in this program as to whether it should be an internal or external process. I think that speaks for itself.
What I do want to say though is one of the points that Graeme made in the interview we heard earlier was the community needs to back itself. And what I mean by that is that the community needs to very seriously consider the fact that there are very well-qualified blind people in this country who could easily be the next CEO of Vision Australia, if allowed the possibility.
If you are a blind person and you genuinely believe that the blind community doesn’t have what it takes to find within itself the next CEO of Vision Australia, and if you believe that committing to the employment of a blind person as Vision Australia’s CEO might lead to a tokenistic appointment, then shame on you. There are so many well-qualified people who have run Australian organizations, worldwide organizations, who have chaired major blindness self-help organizations, as well as service provider organizations. There is absolutely someone out there, not only in Australia, but even internationally, who could be the next CEO of Vision Australia.
This community needs to stand with itself, and it needs to stand for itself. The blind community is not a large community when considered within the scope of Australia’s population, but it has demonstrated repeatedly over many many years that it is powerful, and that it has what it takes to lead itself, and to lead the organizations that provide services and represent it.
Vision Australia, you’re on notice.
[end of New Horizons excerpt]
Jonathan: Preach it, Vaughn. Preach it.
Thanks for letting us air that from New Horizons, and all the very best to everyone in Australia who is fighting this battle. I know there are a lot of people around the globe, myself included, of course, cheering you on.
Listener Thoughts on the Blindness Agency Leadership Crisis
On this matter of the blindness agency leadership crisis, Henry Miller is in the UK. He says:
“I’m so pleased you are raising this issue about sighted people at the top of blindness organizations.
Here in the UK, a few weeks ago, it became public knowledge that the RNIB are proposing to make several blind and partially sighted people who were employed in the Technology for Life (TfL) team redundant. I was so shocked by this news, especially from an organization which claims to have the best interest of blind and partially sighted people at the centre of their existence.
I consequently began to seek further clarification from RNIB via email relating to the RNIB governance structure.
The current CEO, Matt Stringer, is fully sighted. Also, it appears trustees and subcommittee members are all appointed. Out of the 11 of 12 trustees, 5 are site-impaired, but they are all individual appointees. I have submitted more questions to RNIB regarding their governance structure, and awaiting a further response.
I always remember what you say, ‘nothing about us without us’. So very true.”
Thanks, Henry!
And Henry also supplied some interesting correspondence that he has had with RNIB.
Governance reform is certainly an important first step.
And for those who have not heard it yet, back in 2019, Glenn Gordon recorded with me a 9-part biographical series called “In the Arena”. You can find it on my website at Mosen.org, where you can download the entire In the Arena series in zip format. It’s all in MP3s. And then, you can put it onto your book player or device of choice. It’s also available as a podcast, if you search for In the Arena, the Jonathan Mosen story. If you want to know about the significant governance reform of the blindness agency that we went through in New Zealand (it started almost 30 years ago now), my role in it, and what it’s all meant, it might be an interesting listen for you.
I remember when we got this governance reform through, some RNIB people were very interested in it. And in fact, I think it was the inspiration for them slightly renaming themselves. They used to be called the Royal National Institute for the Blind. Now, they call themselves the Royal National Institute of Blind People, which is interesting because you don’t often hear them talking about blind people. You very frequently hear them talk about people with sight loss, sight impaired, and all sorts of nonsense like this. They do seem to be one of those organizations that tries to avoid the word blind.
So they’ve become an of-the-blind organization. But it’s actually a misrepresentation if their governance model doesn’t ensure that the entire board is accountable to, and potentially voted out by blind people service recipients.
That’s the only reason why we changed the name here from the Royal New Zealand Foundation for the Blind to the Royal New Zealand Foundation of the Blind, because the board is now directly accountable to the blind people that the organisation serves. And if we don’t like the board, we can throw them out which given recent events might be a damn fine idea.
But the trouble we have here is that the governance element of the reform has not cascaded to the operational level. The board has not appointed a blind chief executive. They haven’t taken those values of empowerment and self-determination that are now constitutionally enshrined to the operational level of the business.
In fact, it’s become far far worse. Blind Low Vision NZ, as the organization is now known, is horribly disconnected from blind people.
That makes me very sad. We were very progressive once.
You go back about 25, 30 years and you look at the senior leadership table of the Blind Foundation here in New Zealand back then, and there were a lot of people around that table who were blind and also considered world leaders is in their field, if you look at everything from library services, to IT, to government relations, tackling the need to provide services to indigenous people in a culturally appropriate, self-determining way. The organization was a world leader.
And now, it is woeful. It is woeful.
So I think, we need to learn the lessons of history and understand what these lessons are telling us. Many of us have fought long and hard for greater control of these organizations at governance level. But then, what seems to happen is that too many people who get elected to those positions, once we’ve done all the hard advocacy and fighting for that to be possible, they forget where they have come from, and they buy into this idea that somehow, we can’t find a blind person who can be a chief executive of this organization, or we can’t find blind people who can sit around that executive leadership table.
And what’s worse, even if that were true, which it is not, there doesn’t seem to be any effort in many of these organizations to actually foster that leadership, to shoulder-tap potential leadership talent, to shepherd them through the organization, to give them leadership training because so often, in society, blind people are confronted with the tyranny of low expectations. So in the mainstream, as it were, it can be very difficult for blind people to be given those leadership opportunities.
If the agencies that serve us, and are supposed to believe in us, and further the cause of independence can’t do their bit, we have an enormous problem. And the only way we’re going to fix this is to talk about it bluntly and plainly, and tell those blind people on those organizations’ boards who have sold out, to get out of the way and make way for people who remember why they’re here, where they came from, and believe. Absolutely believe in the abilities of blind people, and then invest in capacity building.
And back to an organization that has severely dropped the ball when it comes to recruiting a CEO, Sami Osborne says:
“Thanks so much for raising awareness of recent efforts by deaf-blind individuals to try and appoint a deaf-blind person to the post of Executive Director of HKNC.
I am a former HKNC student myself. And although I personally have not signed the petition due to some constraints, I am aware that some of my friends, along with several former students, have added their names to the list of signatures. I am in full agreement with just about everyone that having a deaf-blind executive director is absolutely imperative and crucial.
That being said, I just thought I’d go on the record and share my reasons why I feel this way with the community at large. As I go along, I’ll be alluding to my personal experiences, as well as those of other students I’ve heard about over the years, including those with a very close friend of mine who I try to visit at least once a year.
Just like you, I was born, although diagnosed much more recently, with Norrie’s disease.”
Hooray, another Norrian!
“I pursued training at HKNC for 9 months between 2015 and 2016, immediately following my high school graduation and prior to starting college.
I would personally describe my overall experience there as being okay more than anything else, because I don’t necessarily consider it either my best, nor my worst life experience. Many of the instructors in charge of training were great, as they helped me transition to a full-time college student, and I have no regrets at all about taking a gap year between high school and college.
In addition, should any deaf-blind students or staff members have any problems with their assistive hearing devices, i.e. Hearing aids and cochlear implants, I think it’s really nice to know that they can simply consult the on-campus audiologist, rather than always having to travel who knows how long to see their own hearing specialist back home.
On the other hand, HKNC has always had a number of outright discriminatory policies, undoubtedly put in place by the Hearing and Sighted Executive Board, and for who knows how long, possibly even as far as 1956, refer the petition, which aims to treat adults like children more than anything else. These policies are just one of the many reasons why so many students, particularly, it seems, those who are fully deaf and blind, have had far worse experiences than me while at HKNC.
For example, upon entering or leaving campus, Each student is required to sign in and out with a staff member working at the front desk of either the residence or training building. They claim the reason for this policy is for fire safety reasons.
If you ask me and perhaps others, however, the argument could potentially be made that adults are always fully responsible for the places they go and people they meet. And therefore, the institution cannot legally hold anyone liable for when he or she enters and leaves campus. This is especially true of colleges, which are completely unstructured. And therefore, it is solely at the discretion of the college student as to whether or not they choose to attend class, not the school.
Additionally, each HKNC student is required to get weighed each month by the resident nurse. If the student has gained 5 pounds or more, the nurse is supposedly obligated to immediately notify the student’s primary care physician back home.
While I think everyone certainly has the right to consult a doctor or nurse if they themselves have any concerns about their weight, again, I think this should be left completely up to the person, and no outside institution should ever be held responsible for things like this. After all, we do all have control over our own bodies, and things like weight and health are more or less private matters that people willingly choose to discuss with others as they wish.
While I wasn’t on any medication when I was a student at HKNC, I am medicated now. And I recently asked the friend I mentioned earlier, who is also a former HKNC student, what their policy was on medication because I was curious.
From what he has told me, all medication is dispensed by the nurse, as though this were a school for the blind, or summer camp for young children, and not a training centre for adults of all ages. My theory on this is that this policy exists because the old sighted and hearing guard believes that deaf-blind students might overdose on medication, and that they’re not able to take their medication responsibly.
To me, this just seems like such a ridiculous argument because ideally, the student has always been responsible handling his or her medications at home prior to entering HKNC to begin with. Additionally, everyone is always guided by their doctor and or pharmacy on both dosage and how many times per day the medication should be taken.
Lastly, if a student is not able to attend class on a given day either due to illness or any other reason, that student is not permitted to stay in their room in the residence at all, and is required to be supervised by someone in the training building.
Personally, while it is reasonable that a student should see the nurse and stay where they can be monitored if they feel deftly ill, I also think the system used for regulating classroom absences at HKNC should probably be similar to that used in colleges and other institutions. For example, the student could have some number of absences allowed, let’s say maybe 2 to 4 each month, before their instructor immediately becomes concerned and begins pursuing necessary action. If the student has met or exceeded said number of absences within said time period, then that might be the time for the instructor to intervene and find out if he or she is okay and needs help with anything.
I’m very well aware that it’s different with college professors having to keep track of 20 or more students in a single class and instructors only working with one-on-one, with just one student at a time. However, this system has always seemingly worked very well in college, with minimal (if any) complaints, as far as I can tell.
When students have complained to superiors about the unfairness and rigidity of these policies, students have usually been told only that these policies are New York state law. This has left many skeptical of these claims, at the very least. And, as someone who was raised in New York myself, I can tell you that this is a blatant lie, Again, because no colleges, nor any other training centres in the state, nor indeed the entire country, have any of these policies and restrictions in place.
In addition to the written HKNC policies I was just describing, there have also been numerous offensive, unnecessary, and just over-the-top statements sighted and hearing staff members have allegedly made to deaf-blind students, which the students have written about either publicly or privately.
For example, my close friend was constantly ridiculed by at least 2 staff members about the type of clothes he chose to wear during the winter, and even from another about the kind of soda he drank. The very same staff had also made false claims about the way he, along with at least one other student, has been using their guide dogs, even though the staff in question very well knew that they had no idea how guide dogs operate.
My friend was also denied access to sign language interpreters on at least 5 different occasions, allegedly, because he was told by his case manager that he just was,“not deaf enough”, which he found offensive to the deaf community as a whole.
I only bring all of this up because it just seems abundantly clear to me, and perhaps many others, that certain HKNC staff members appear to view deaf-blind individuals as little more than vulnerable beings, and that they aren’t afraid in the least, of exploiting said vulnerabilities. As you can probably imagine, this will only backfire on the person doing the exploitation in the end.
This kind of behaviour is also absolutely unacceptable and inexcusable, and it needs to stop immediately.
This is the primary reason why I feel all of us, as a blind and deaf-blind community, must take action at once to ensure that deaf-blind candidates are not passed over for the position of HKNC Executive Director, based solely on disability alone. A deaf-blind Executive Director might also be able to completely lift/abolish at least some of hknc’s blatantly discriminatory policies treating adults like children. This person would also be able to provide necessary training to sighted and hearing personnel about deaf-blind individuals, and how they operate as a whole.”
Voice message: Hey there, Jonathan. Chris Nusbaum here from delaware in the US.
First of all, I just wanted to comment on the excellent segment that you did featuring Graeme Innes of Vision Australia, and also, the comments that you made about the petition to the Helen Keller National Center and Helen Keller Services from the deaf-blind community here in the US. I firmly stand in solidarity with you and with both the deaf-blind community here, and the blind community in Australia.
This is, as you point out, a global problem. I think that we often get this misconception, both in other countries and in the US, that the US has it so good. And in a lot of cases, we don’t, especially in crises like this that we’re talking about here, where blind people aren’t involved in the leadership of organizations designed to serve us.
This is really coming to light for me since I’ve moved to Delaware about 2 years ago now.
I’m involved in the NFB affiliate here, and there was a resolution that was passed last year at the NFB state convention calling on our state rehab agency to hire a blind director, which they’ve never done, so far as I know, and also to employ more blind people. They only have a few blind people on their staff in very low-profile positions, and they’ve kind of developed an employment practice of the blind need not apply, it seems, to the blind community here. And so the NFB is trying to change that, as is the ACB affiliate in Delaware, but it seems like their conversations with the leadership of the rehab agency here aren’t getting very far.
So this year, the resolution is coming back, and is a little more strongly worded, or at least, we’re trying to make it more strongly worded.
Somehow, I ended up the chairman of the resolutions committee. [laughs] I really don’t know what I’m doing, but I’m trying. And it’s a little strange because coming from a state like Maryland where I grew up, and where blind people have, at least in my lifetime, always been very active in the blindness system, this is a very different environment.
So it’s kind of a wake up call, but it’s a wake up call to a global crisis, so I’m glad you’re covering it the way that you are.
I would say, to the deaf-blind community and the community in Australia, I stand with you, and keep up the great work.
Jonathan: Thank you, Chris. Good to hear from you.
Pam MacNeill is writing in on this subject and says:
“Dear Jonathan and Living Blindfully listeners,
I was very interested in the discussions about employment during the most recent podcast episode, particularly that relating to leadership of blindness organizations by their constituents.
As you know, employment is a defining measure of identity, worth, and social validation in Western society. Paid work is widely acknowledged as an important source of financial independence, self-esteem, social status, and mental well-being.
Yet, the benefits of employment are often denied to us, even when we are well-qualified academically and experientially.
As someone who left school completely unqualified, and in fact, functionally illiterate due to deteriorating vision that was not well understood by my family or teachers, I found it very difficult to gain much employment in my early years, other than a couple of years in switchboard and factory jobs. I was out of work far more than I was employed between the ages of 15 and 27, when I got the chance to attend university as an adult student. Thank goodness the study fees were very low in 1985, unlike now.
I am sure your listeners can imagine how frustrated I became upon leaving university after 4 years and having gained good qualifications, to have to rely on a supported employment program to get my foot in the door of work. I was, by this time, better qualified to undertake than the majority of my sighted peers. Even though I had gained the specialised qualifications required in my chosen career, my blindness was regarded by potential employers as being an insurmountable barrier to my ability to work. However, the biggest barrier was not my blindness, but the negative attitudes prevalent within society, often fueled by ignorant media discourses.
Throughout a lengthy term as the national manager of the very supported employment program that helped me get a foot in the door of work, I gained several business and rehabilitation qualifications. Over the years since, I have worked in a variety of positions from providing disability training advice to quality improvement in disability residential care, and a recent senior role supporting the work of the Royal Commission here in New Zealand. However, it must be said that I have experienced many gaps in my employment history, substantively due to my blindness.
Earlier this year, I completed a PhD. My doctoral research is based on the premise that in order for disabled people to be fairly represented in the workforce, they must be included at all levels and in all occupations. Such occupations include those designed to serve disabled people in government workplaces and non-governmental organizations (NGOs). Research specifically focuses on barriers and enablers to employment for disabled people, wishing to work in the disability sector, and those employed seeking promotion. Many disabled people would like to extend the often quoted mantra of choice and control to include power, with respect to leadership and management of a sector that exists in our name. My thesis asserts that lived experience of disability is a critical competency in a sector established to serve us, and should be considered as such by all who speak or act in our name including service providers, disabled people’s organizations legitimated by the UN, and politicians and policy makers.
I don’t know if others have experienced what I seem to be coming up against lately, with respect to seeking work in the disability sector – namely non-disabled people who appear to be quite put out by our insistence that we manage our own affairs.
I am, frankly, appalled by people working in the disability sector who have no lived experience, believing their non-disabledness makes them superior to disabled job applicants. Neither is it good enough to simply substitute disability-related knowledge and experience with knowledge and experience relevant to unrelated minority interests. The disability sector should exist, first and foremost, for disabled people.
My thesis includes a number of recommendations to both government and NGO sectors. Here are the 5 research recommendations I highlighted as being of critical importance to the latter sector.
- Provide internships with planned pathways to employment, in order to introduce more disabled people into the disability sector workforce.
- Provide and promote on-the-job training and in-work support to disabled staff.
- Include lived experience of disability as a key competency for work relating to disabled people in strategic and business planning, in position descriptions, and in induction and ongoing training to encourage greater participation by disabled people in the disability sector workforce.
- Investigate flexible work options with disabled staff such as project-based work, working from home, and combining disparate tasks together, to create accessible employment opportunities.
- Employ experienced disabled people in leadership and management positions in all areas of the disability sector.
Just as people in other sectors of society have done before us, it is now our time to lead and manage the sector which exists to serve us with the mandate and guidance of fellow disabled people.”
Oh my goodness, Pam! I’m tempted to just applaud. That was a wonderful email.
And I know that you’d come over here (you don’t live too far from me) and hit me over the head with something if I called you an inspiration. [laughs]
But to have gone from leaving school because you weren’t given the education that you deserved (you weren’t given access to Braille when you needed it), to having wanted something better, gone back to university, and now you’ve been a senior leader for quite a long time and you have your PhD, I think that is absolutely fantastic. And if I can’t use the inspiration word for fear of being hit on the head, I can say what that demonstrates is that we do have more control over our destinies than sometimes we realize we do. And that if we want to make a big life change, we absolutely can.
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Jennifer Wenzel and Lia Stone, Co-chairs of the National Federation of the Blind’s Employment Committee
We’re continuing our interviews from the National Federation of the Blind Convention. We’re going to be talking now about one of the most important subjects it’s possible to talk about in the blind community, and that is employment.
A job is the key to dignity, to economic independence, to a sense of self-worth, and they are far too elusive for many of us. So we’re going to talk about the whole question of how NFB is tackling employment.
We’ve got the co-chairs of NFB’s Employment Committee with us – Jennifer Wenzel and Lia Stone. Welcome to you both.
And Bonnie is with us as well because as you know, if you have been monitoring Mosen Consulting over the years when we were active there, Bonnie wrote a book called It’s Off to Work We Go, and has also had some experience in vocational rehab counselling. So good to have you on this discussion, Bonnie.
Bonnie: Thank you.
Jonathan: Now, let’s open it up by talking about the NFB Employment Committee. Jennifer or Lia, would you like to introduce the committee to us? Tell us what it does.
Jennifer: Sure. I’m Jennifer Wenzel, and our committee is focused on employment, helping people get the skills and the confidence they need to get the jobs that they would like to get.
So we work with both job seekers and employers. We’ve been really working a lot with employers, I guess, this last quarter. We meet monthly, and our biggest focus is on career fairs. So we have a physical career fair at the convention. We have a physical career fair at the Washington Seminar. And then, we generally have a virtual career fair in the fall. This year, it will be October 22nd.
We work closely with the national office, with Nikki Jackson, who works with Anil Lewis for employment initiatives for the NFB.
Jonathan: And how did you become a member of the Employment Committee, Lia? Because I know Jennifer’s a name that we associate with this committee for a wee while now. but now, there’s a co-chair, and that’s you.
Lia: Yeah. So I am a social worker by training, and I worked in New Jersey’s transition program for a few years.
After I stopped working there, I got into tech recruiting, which I could not stop talking about because employment is one of the things I’m incredibly passionate about. So I was talking about it, I can’t even remember what event, at the National Center I was at. We were talking about my experience at the time I was working as a diversity sourcer at an AI startup with President Riccobono.
And then, 6 months later, he was like, “What do you think about co-chairing the National Employment Committee?”
Jonathan: And here you are.
Lia: And here I am.
Jonathan: Yeah. [laughs]
Jennifer: And I’m so glad to have her, and her perspectives, and her help, [laughs], because it’s a big job. I was changing jobs and told President Riccobono, I just didn’t think I could tackle the whole job on my own, and I really needed some help.
And so he asked me what I thought about Lia. And I didn’t know Lia, but I had a great conversation with her, and I was really excited about what she would bring to the committee.
Jonathan: So I know this is a really easy question to answer, so I’ll ask you it now.
[laughter]
Jonathan: Why is it that when you look at all the technological progress we’ve made in the last 3 or 4 decades, … I mean now, it is so much easier for blind people to do a wide range of jobs that previously would have required sighted assistance. The world’s gone paperless and electronic. And largely, with companies like Microsoft, things are very accessible.
And yet, it doesn’t feel like we’re moving the needle when it comes to our unemployment statistics. With all these technological advancements and opportunities we now have, why is it so difficult for blind people to get a job?
Lia: Man! Oh man! How much time do I have? [laughs]
Jennifer: Exactly. [laughs]
Lia: I mean, it really is multifactorial.
So I think, we look at it from like a systemic perspective. For people who are blind from birth or early childhood, the problem starts at the education level, right? Like, are they getting quality Braille instruction, O&M instruction, tech instruction, so that they can be competitive through high school and into college or vocational school or something like that, so that they can become gainfully employed? That’s one piece of it.
The other piece of it is, I think, exactly what you touched on. With the technological advancements in some respects, I think it’s made it much easier for us to find employment in certain realms. But with those technological advancements, especially it feels like in recent years, we are being actively shut out from a lot of things due to inaccessible software interfaces and, you know, absolutely dreadful design.
And then, of course, there’s, I think, the social attitudes. We still have a lot of work to do in this country about changing the attitudes and the ideology that I think the general population has about blindness.
Jonathan: What are your thoughts, Jennifer? Why is it so difficult?
Jennifer: We’ve been talking about this a lot. And in fact, I was just talking about this with some people at dinner last night. [laughs]
I completely agree with the things that Lia has talked about. Those are all very important factors.
There’s 2 others that I can think of. One is that employers don’t know about all the technological advances, and so don’t always have the expectation that blind people can do these jobs.
The other is that some of the advances are only one-sided. So what I mean by that is there might be a system that is really accessible from a user perspective, but not from the administration end.
So as an example, I worked in human resources previously, and I was testing a state benefits portal. It was a new system. And on the employee side, they had really thoroughly tested it for accessibility, and it was looking really really good.
When we went to the HR side, it was fairly abysmal. For instance, there was a reports button. You could run these great reports. You could put all these categories and filters, and all the filters worked great.
But I could not open the report, or download the report, or do anything with the report because that particular button would not activate in any way. I tried many ways. I’m a troubleshooter. I’ll mess with it forever.
And they said well, we tested it. It works with NVDA. That should be okay.
No, that’s not okay.
So that’s the kind of thing. The thinking isn’t there.
And they were shocked. “Oh, we didn’t think about a blind person doing the HR.” So that’s part of it.
The other thing is, I think going back to the education, I think there’s a focus on getting students out of high school (and that’s very very important), and doing all the things that are needed. But then, things end up getting missed. So people focus on the iPhone and the iPad, and those are wonderful pieces of technology. But you cannot do every employment skill. So touch typing gets missed, for instance, and Excel and other PC skills get missed. And so when people go out into the work world, they say oh, I can do this all on my iPhone, and they can’t always.
Jonathan: It’s interesting because I’ve heard some blind people arguing that the notetaker is actually doing a lot of damage in this regard because it’s shielding people from PC skills.
Jennifer: I agree.
Lia: Yup, I agree, 100%.
Jennifer: That’s the other issue.
And I sympathize with itinerant teachers of blind students because there’s only so much time they have to teach things. So if a notetaker is working, it’s hard to change and you know, go to other things that might be harder.
I don’t know the solution to this problem. I just see it all the time as a problem.
When I was working in recruiting for a company, we would get people that wanted to work at our call center, and they had no PC skills. And the platform was PC-based. It could not be used on a Mac, or an iPad. And you know, they had wonderful phone voice, and people had told them that they should go into phone careers because they were blind, …
[laughter]
Jennifer: which is another issue.
That’s a very interesting discussion as well.
Bonnie, you and I were having a discussion with Deborah Kendrick last night about the expectations that people set of blind people, particularly when they’re young and impressionable. And we get stories to this podcast as well, actually, about people whose whole life trajectory has gone in a direction that they didn’t necessarily want it to go because someone at some critical formative stage of a blind person’s life has actively discouraged them from taking up a job that they were absolutely capable of doing.
Did you want to comment on that, Bonnie, from your perspective?
Bonnie: I do. The sad part of that is a lot of times, it’s a blind professional who does that.
Lia: Yup.
Bonnie: And it is so important. I can’t say how much it is important to have strong mentors. If someone is interested in a career of any kind, then chances are there is someone out there who has done it, knows someone who has done it, and really trying to network with that person.
Jonathan: Yeah.
I remember that Kenneth Jernigan used to tell a story about how he wanted to pursue a career in the law. And at a very formative stage for him, I believe it might have been a blind person, a vocational guidance counselor said, “You know, you can’t really do that. You shouldn’t bother doing that.” And it was a regret that he had.
So it is real, and it goes on.
Bonnie, also, I wanted to talk to you about soft skills, and hear the committee members’ views on this.
Bonnie: Yes.
Jonathan: Because in your book and in other things we’ve talked about on this podcast, we’ve talked about the importance of the supply side as well as the demand side, and how it is important that when we turn up to a job interview, we turn up on time, that we look presentable, that we know basic things like looking at the person that we’re talking to. And I think there’s a bit of a shyness sometimes about talking about these real issues in the blind communities that can affect our employment.
We know attitudes are a huge barrier, but we’ve got to also do our own part.
Bonnie: Yeah. Soft skills are important for anyone who is looking for a job, but particularly a person who’s blind or low vision.
Well, I worked for the Mass Commission for the Blind, and we had a lot of soft skills training for job seekers – really doing a lot of role playing around it so that they are comfortable, and explaining why it’s important.
Unfortunately, it is a sided world out there, and you have to be a little bit better than your competitors. And that’s not fair. It’s not right. But it is reality in many aspects. And just being able to understand what you’re wearing, what the type of job you’re doing, what kind of the culture, is what you would be wearing to that job.
And being able to have soft skills, good blindness skills, but also good soft skills being because work is work, but you also need to interact with your co-workers, try to make friends, I mean, you’re going to be there 8, 9 hours a day.
Jonathan: Yea.
Bonnie: So you’ve got to be able to get along in the office in some capacity. [laughs]
Jennifer: Yes. [laughs]
Bonnie: So you know, social skills are very important. And I don’t think that we do a lot with that in terms of even school because like you were saying, the itinerant teachers are so busy. They’re doing so much.
And sometimes, that is something that’s overlooked at home if you’re not very independent, if mama and daddy are going to come with you to work, or call the workplace. And I have heard that.
[laughter]
Jennifer: I’ve seen mommies come to interviews. [laughs]
Bonnie: Yes, exactly. So you know, if that’s going to happen, then you’re not going to be successful.
But just really having those hard conversations because sometimes, they are hard conversations to have about social skills or soft skills.
If someone doesn’t sit up straight, doesn’t look at you, or is really needing a makeover, if you will, you have to have those conversations, and they can be tough. And being able to do that in a manner that’s not going to be offensive, but really going to help that person.
Jonathan: So the blindisms. We’ve talked about blindisms on the show quite a bit – the rocking, the eye-poking, that kind of stuff, and it’s interesting.
There are 2 schools of thought about this. One is that I am who I am, and we should be tolerant as a society of people who exhibit these behaviors, and others who say look, you’re just going to stand out. You’re going to make your chances worse.
Bonnie: And that’s interesting because we’re getting so much more aware of neurodiversity and that sort of thing. And I’m just wondering, you know, particularly from you guys, what is kind of the thinking now? Because there is more of an acceptance of different, I don’t want to say behaviors, but different kind of quirks or however you want to put it. Is that changing, do you think?
Jennifer: That’s a really good question. I don’t know that it is changing as much.
Jonathan: Yeah.
Jennifer: I think that it’s important to have coping mechanisms, you know, things that make you feel good, or things that you do. Self-care is a very important thing, and I get that.
But I still think it’s very off-putting to people to have certain behaviors going on, and I don’t know if that’s changed.
Bonnie: Yeah.
Jennifer: Lia, maybe you have a different perspective?
Lia: So it’s interesting because I feel like what I have seen is there is definitely an increase in acceptance for those kinds of stimming behavior.
I should also clarify here. I’m also a therapist. So I’m going to try to not use clinical language. [laughs]
Bonnie: [laughs] Thank you.
Jonathan: I’ve heard of stimming before.
[laughter]
Bonnie: Stimming, that’s the word I was looking for. I haven’t had my coffee yet. [laughs]
Lia: But I’ve noticed there is more of an acceptance, especially in certain areas for those behaviors that are associated with autism spectrum disorder, ADHD, and things like that. I am not seeing that same acceptance necessarily be like grafted on to the similar behaviors, the blindisms, if you will. And it’s really difficult because I think we kind of got to hold both things at the same time. Yes, it should be different. Yes, things do need to change.
And also, it can be very off-putting for some sighted people. And some of those sighted people for whom it is off-putting are the people you need to impress, the people you need to be hiring you, or networking with you or what have you.
Jennifer: I interviewed blind people. And if they’re rocking, or head-spinning, I find it very distracting.
Bonnie: Yeah.
Jennifer: I find it harder to listen to them, and harder to track what they’re saying.
Lia: Yeah.
Jennifer: And maybe that’s me being intolerant. I don’t know. But I think it’s really important to try to break those habits and try not to.
if you want to do them when you’re at home, if you have a rocking chair and you want to rock, wonderful. That’s great. That’s a good way, I think, to balance it.
But I think you should try to break those. My parents were adamant that I not have those habits. I was an eye-poker when I was really young, and they were very very opposed to that, and talked about how it looks strange to people. Well, my mother told me it might sink my eyes back into my head and I might have holes in my head, which terrified me, but worked.
[laughter]
Jonathan: That’s one way of curing it, yeah.
Jennifer: It worked. [laughs] But I wouldn’t recommend that.
[laughter]
Jennifer: And I was a bouncer as a kid.
Here, jump rope. Here’s a pogo stick.
Bonnie: Yeah.
Jennifer: Here are good ways to do that. But don’t do that when you’re talking to grandma. [laughs]
Bonnie: [laughs]
Jonathan: Yeah.
Jennifer: So I think that’s important that people have those conversations, and it’s good to have them young, if you can because when you’re younger, you accept that a little better.
It’s harder, … I’ve worked with blind adults that I’ve had to have some conversations about hygiene, and it’s harder. And it’s not intended to be hurtful, but some people take it as hurtful.
Bonnie: Yeah, which is understandable.
Jonathan: These are those difficult discussions that we need to have though, aren’t they? We need to be honest as a community about some of the things that we can do, the things that are in our control to change. And these are all controllable.
Some of the attitudinal barriers are much more tricky. But these things? We can turn up looking professional. We can increase our prospects in that regard. That is within our control.
Lia: Right.
Jennifer: Right.
Jonathan: And I think it comes back to expectations. It’s important that educators and other professionals assisting blind kids at that formative stage have high enough expectations to say, “You actually need to stop this stimming. It’s going to interfere with your prospects as an adult.”
Jennifer: Yes. Having that high expectation for their future is so important.
Not accepting oh, you can read 10 words a minute. You’re good. Knowing that will not help them in the real world. And continuing to encourage them to read Braille and go quicker, or read a combination of large print and Braille and really get that literacy.
Really, not just say oh well, they’re blind. They can get by.
Jonathan: Yes. And the statistics on Braille readers and employment are compelling.
Jennifer: Yes.
Jonathan: When you look at the number of Braille readers and employment, it looks very much more similar to the national unemployment average.
Lia: Yup.
Jonathan: So it’s a compelling argument.
Bonnie: One other thing I just wanted to quickly add, going back to talking about education, is one thing that I have seen working with some of the high school transition kids is some of the resource teachers are doing everything for them. And if you go to an IEP conference, there’s like 6 people there that are supporting them. And some of them are very intelligent kids. The teachers are there.
Like you said, reading 10 words a minute, that sort of thing.
But they have no idea how to advocate to get books at university, how to take notes. It’s all been done for them.
Jennifer: Right.
Bonnie: And when they get to uni, university, or college, or whatever post-secondary education, they struggle.
Lia: Yup.
Jennifer: There is no problem-solving that is taught.
Bonnie: No.
Jennifer: And there’s also this fear of failure. They can’t fail. So if they don’t do their homework, somebody quickly rushes in to do it because that blind child can’t fail. That’s a real problem.
And yeah, I’ve heard of people now begging for aids in college for their kids because they always had aids in school. And that’s not the way to solve this. [laughs]
Bonnie: It’s not reality.
Jonathan: One of the things I’m always impressed with is the way the National Federation of the Blind reaches out to parents of blind children. and the Parents of Blind Children division is incredibly strong in the organized blind movement in this country. It’s amazing to see. I just get so inspired by those kids walking through the hotel with their white canes.
Jennifer: Yes, yes. That makes my heart happy.
Jonathan: It’s so exciting.
Bonnie: Yes. They said, just clicking along, like the migration of little crabs going along.
[laughter]
Bonnie: It sounded like that.
Jonathan: Because you know, as a parent, … I’m a dad of 4 myself. And everybody wants whatever the perfect baby is. It’s a horrible term.
But when blindness comes, it’s often not expected, and parents may not have encountered blindness before. So they’ll have lots of questions. And one of the greatest gifts that those parents can be given is mentoring from blind adults. I think what NFB does in this regard is just so so important.
Jennifer: I agree.
I got to do a workshop yesterday on what to do if your baby is blind with my sister, and that was really a great thing. And we found some great families that are doing the right things already, and it was great to be part of encouraging them.
Bonnie: Yes.
Jonathan: Yeah, because it’s important for those parents to go in there, demanding good quality education for their kids. Unless they believe in their heart that it’s possible for their blind child to have a life, they may not advocate as strongly. So all those expectations setting is really important.
Let’s talk about the other side, though. We can turn up dressed immaculately, we can not be rocking and eye-poking, we can have the answers to the interview questions, we can have done our due diligence on the job. And still, there are so many barriers.
Interestingly, particularly in blindness agencies, I see a trend where blindness agencies around the world are employing far fewer blind people, and that’s particularly the case at senior leadership level. The number of agencies around the world who serve the blind community with blind chief executives is now an absolute international disgrace and an outrage.
So what do we do to move that needle? Is there a public education element here? Should NFB be more militant in demanding that at least blindness organizations walk their talk and provide programs that encourage blind people to gain experience and to move up through the ranks? Because it seems like these organizations aren’t doing their bit.
Lia: Oh man, do I have feelings about this.
[laughter]
Lia: Well, because in New Jersey, we had an interesting situation a few years back where we did have a… Dan Fry was our, … And because of how the system works in New Jersey, it’s a political appointment. And so when the new governor (new, he’s almost at the end of his term) came in, swept everybody out, and we’ve had a sighted in the agency’s history.
Jonathan: Yeah, and it was a Democrat who did this.
Lia: Yeah. But like Filmer, let me just say New Jersey Democrats, like, I would simply say you should Google what’s been going on with New Jersey Democrats lately.
[laughter]
Bonnie: The gold guy.
Lia: Yeah, yeah, right. Gold bar Bob, and everything.
Bonnie: [laughs]
Lia: And so we’ve had a sighted, … And she’s a lovely woman. She’s very kind. I appreciate that she wants to learn. And she has made a concerted effort. But she is not a blind person.
Bonnie: No.
Lia: And I’m not saying every blind person is created.
Bonnie: Exactly.
Jonathan: Right.
Lia: Because we have had executive directors who are blind who do not share the philosophy that blind people are capable.
And it’s just, I will say, I come from a community organizing background. I was an organizer in the student movement in the US 12 years ago.
So I was drawn to the NFB in part because someone was like oh, they’re militant blind people. And I was like oh, militant. Got it. Cool! These are my people.
[laughter]
Lia: So I actually do think we should be, maybe militant is a strong word, but at minimum, I think we do need to be more pushy about this.
Jonathan: I mean, right, because how do we wrestle these agencies back?
Lia: Right.
Jonathan: There’s effectively been a coup that has gone on where sighted people have taken over these agencies. So surely, that does require militancy.
Lia: I agree, and I don’t think this is an area where we can afford to be precious about our feelings. And like, we can still treat people with dignity and respect.
But they created a new assistant division director role in New Jersey, for example. They hired 2 people – a sighted person and a blind person. And the attitude was oh, yeah. We’re gonna have a sighted one and a blind one in this role, which is I’m sorry. What?
Bonnie: Okay? Yeah. [laughs] 2 people? What?
Jonathan: Why?
Bonnie: Why? Yeah.
Lia: The blind person happened to be my former supervisor. So I’m like, I know he is like a billion percent capable of doing this work. Like, why do we need a blind person and a sighted person? [laughs]
And I mean since, the sighted person has left, and so that role has not been filled. So there is now just a blind person in the number 2 role.
But still, these things are not good enough. When this attitude flows downhill from the top of these agencies, we see it in the itinerant staff, the instructors, the training center staff, it permeates every level at these agencies. It is a really dreadful attitude, and I don’t know, thing to demonstrate. And I think it’s actually a pretty big deal that we are far more militant and pushing back against this.
Jennifer: Well, and there’s such a trend for diversity, equity, and inclusion. But that does not seem to include blind people doing their jobs capably and well in that realm, which is an important realm.
Bonnie: Yeah.
Jennifer: And there’s not the career development that pushes people.
You might get hired as, say, a teacher, a rehab teacher or something. But then, where do you go from there? How do you grow? It doesn’t seem to happen for people, or they’re not helped to do that.
Jonathan: This is a wider issue too, because I read some of these reports from companies like Apple that I’m interested in, and they produce their diversity, equity, and inclusion reports. And they talk very laudably (and I’m not knocking it in any way whatsoever) about the number of women they’re employing, and ethnic minorities. But disabled people don’t seem to come up in those reports.
Bonnie: No. And I will never forget years ago (and I brought this up in diversity training many times) that they mentioned disability, but they don’t really include it.
And I’ll never forget, we had a career fair when I was working in Massachusetts. And the employers knew that it was a disability career fair, a diversity disability career fair. But some of them said Oh. I was expecting more people of color, or more Hispanic people.
It’s kind of like, what are you saying?
Jennifer: Yeah. Why?
Bonnie: And I said, why?
And they said, because they said it’s diversity.
And I said Well yeah, but it’s for disability. And there are people of color in the, you know.
But when they think of diversity, that’s where they go.
Jennifer: That’s what people think about, yeah.
I went to a disability symposium, and it’s specifically focused on, they said neurodivergent. I’m not sure what the proper term is, but it was for, you know, people who had autism, or were ADHD, or neurologically typical, I guess, is what they kept saying.
Bonnie: Yeah, neurotypical.
Jennifer: Yeah. So that was fine.
But they briefly mentioned other disabilities, and they referred to blind people as visually handicapped.
Jonathan: Right.
Bonnie: Charming.
Jennifer: I was offended. I was incensed. Because they went on and on for about an hour about should you call someone neurotypical? Neurodivergent? and maybe that’s offensive. They kept trying to get the correct term for that.
But then, they said, “So for visually handicapped people, …”
I said, hold on a minute. [laughter]
Jennifer: That is the most offensive term you could have used to describe me. [laughs]
Bonnie: Right?
That’s like sight loss. I mean, some people never had sight to lose.
Jennifer: Correct. I never had sight to lose. Don’t tell me i’ve lost my sight, you know, I have sight loss. [laughs]
Jonathan: Yeah. And the reason why all these things are linked (and I want to be clear about this so listeners are following along) is in my view, surely, the easiest one to crack is to make sure that our own blindness organizations are leading by example.
Jennifer: Yes.
Jonathan: So we should expect these blindness organizations to be led by capable blind people. They should be promoting capable blind people so there’s a clear career path from entry level, all the way up to the most senior position in that organization, the executive director, the chief executive, because those blindness agencies have a moral obligation to show how it can be done. And when we see blind people in these senior leadership roles, it should serve as a lesson to other companies about how you do this, about the fact that it’s even possible to do this.
But if we have these blindness organizations that have now around the world become increasingly corporate, and they’re saying oh, we don’t believe there are any qualified blind people to occupy these roles, how possibly can they go out there with any credibility whatsoever and advocate for the rest of the world to doing what they are not?
Bonnie: Yeah.
Jennifer: Exactly.
Bonnie: And I think a couple of things. We’re not saying that you should hire executive, just because they’re blind.
Jennifer: Right.
Jonathan: Right.
Bonnie: They have to have qualifications.
Lia: Absolutely.
Jennifer: That’s harmful.
Bonnie: And that’s harmful. That’s very harmful because you’re setting someone up to fail.
But I also think there’s an elephant in the room that we don’t talk about is sometimes, particularly in the not-for-profit sector, where you have boards that have blind people on them. There is professional jealousy.
Jonathan: We don’t talk about this enough.
Jennifer: No.
Jonathan: There are blind people who actively resent the idea of hiring other capable blind people, and it’s easier for blind people to get on the governance level of these organizations. And sometimes, executive director, chief executive positions come with big salaries, and there are blind people who resent giving such a thing to another blind person. It is an absolutely real thing.
Jennifer: Yeah, it is. And that’s really sad because it only helps all of us if many of us succeed.
Bonnie: Right.
Jennifer: The more people succeeding, that brings up the higher expectations for college students, for teachers of blind students, because you can point to so many more successful people.
Lia: Right.
Jennifer: But that’s not, … Yeah, you’re right. There’s that jealousy. There’s almost feeling threatened.
Bonnie: Yeah, threatened.
Lia: Yeah.
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Jonathan: My first NFB convention (and this is dating me, so don’t judge).
[laughter]
Jonathan: But my first NFB convention was in Chicago in 1995. And on channel 42 on the television, they had a thing called NFB TV.
[laughter]
Jennifer: Oh yeah, I remember that.
Jonathan: Yeah.
Jennifer: They showed speeches and stuff, right?
Jonathan: They showed all these NFB videos and stuff.
Bonnie: That’s cool.
Jennifer: That’s kind of fun.
Lia: That was actually really cool.
Jonathan: Yeah. They had speeches from Dr. Jernigan, and Dr. Maurer and various other things. They had a great video called That The Blind May Read, and I remember Barbara Pierce was on that. It was just fantastic.
One of the things they also showed on NFB TV was these ads that Dr. Jernigan voiced, which were public awareness raising things, PSAs basically, which tried to make the point that blind people are just like you, that blind people are of varying abilities. I think the term that Dr. Jernigan used was geniuses and jerks.
[laughter]
Jennifer: That’s true.
Jonathan: That public education thing is really important, isn’t it? Because I often think, what does the average sighted person who may be an employer think when they close their eyes and think, what is a blind person capable of?
I think this is probably the number 1 problem, to be honest, that somebody shuts their eyes and thinks, if I were blind, I couldn’t do this job. How do we tackle this?
Jennifer: I think we don’t tackle it by doing those visual simulations that people do.
Lia: Yeah.
Jonathan: I agree with you 100%. They are so damaging.
Jennifer: I think we have to have the capable people going to employers and talk. And this is something that really frustrates me is often, these job professionals that are job coaches, job placement professionals are sighted, and they’re going and saying, hire this blind person.
Bonnie: Yeah.
Jennifer: We need more blind people doing that work, educating employers.
Jonathan: Yup.
Jennifer: “This is how I do this job.” Or, “This is my friend, so-and-so. They do this job in this way.”, and maybe they have a recording or a video, or they bring Bob in that does this job. Because we need to show the employers this really can be done.
I feel like when the sighted people are going in, the employers are like well, maybe. But they don’t really see it, and they don’t really know it’s possible.
Once they know it’s possible, they’ll believe it. So I think it’s just a matter of really educating people with competent blind people helping educate them.
Jonathan: What sometimes happens though is that blind people are quite down on other blind people who choose to work in the blindness field.
Jennifer: Yes, yes.
Lia: Oh boy, oh boy.
Jonathan: There’s a perception that somehow, this is a lesser choice. It’s an easy choice in some way, and blind people are looked down on by other blind people because they’ve chosen to give something back.
Jennifer: Yes, yup. I’ve been in the blindness field, and I’ve felt that.
Bonnie: Yeah. I have, too.
Jennifer: Oh well, you don’t work in a competitive employment.
Lia: Right, yeah.
Bonnie: I just got a new job recently, and a friend of mine who’s blind said, “It’s so cool. You’re not with a blindness agency anymore.” [laughs]
Jonathan: Yeah.
Bonnie: I was like, “Okay. Why?”
Jennifer: Why is that cooler?
[laughter]
Lia: Right. I spoke on a panel during that first pandemic convention about this when I was back in 2020 for the Employment Committee, ironically enough, and I talked about the importance of it, and how we don’t judge the children of lawyers who become lawyers, or the children of doctors who become doctors. In fact, we see that all the time. And nobody’s like, “Ugh! You’re a doctor.
[laughter]
Bonnie: Of course.
Lia: Yeah. It’s like okay, are we living in the same reality where that’s bad?
But I’ve been talking about this a lot with people because I’ve been wrestling with… I don’t think I have the stomach to go back to the blindness field, but I also can’t argue that it’s really important we have more qualified blind people with the right philosophy going into the blindness agencies if we’re not willing to do it. So that’s something I’ve been wrestling with a lot myself.
On the one hand, I feel like it is important to understand we should not pigeonhole people into the blindness field, right? Like, just because you are blind and can read Braille does not mean you should become a teacher of blind students. Just because you know how to use JAWS without setting your laptop on fire does not actually mean you could be an assistive tech instructor, or should.
[laughter]
Lia: But at the same time, we need to encourage blind people who do have the skills that we would want to see in anybody who is a teacher, or an educator, or a counselor, or insert position within the field here. We should encourage those people who are blind, who have those traits, to consider it because we can’t demand that the blindness agencies hire more blind people at every level if we are not willing to take those jobs. And the reality is, at least in this country, they’re not like terribly paid jobs all over the place. Maybe this is New Jersey privilege. But like in New Jersey, these jobs are union jobs with a pension.
Bonnie: Yeah. I mean, it’s a job. I mean, we all want that fantastic, glamorous job.
Lia: Of course.
Bonnie: We all do. But a job’s a job.
Lia: Absolutely.
Bonnie: And you shouldn’t be ashamed of where you’re working, if you’re able to support yourself, support your family, you know, go on vacation, whatever you want to do, buy shoes, purses, you know, that sort of thing, …
Jonathan: Oh boy.
[laughter]
Bonnie: And it does so much for your self-esteem.
Jennifer: Absolutely.
Bonnie: I mean, your confidence. You’re doing something. You may hate it. But the majority of the world hates their jobs, so you’re not alone.
Jennifer: But if we don’t have good blind people, we can never make these changes. If we don’t encourage blind people to take some of these agency jobs, not frown upon them and look down on them and, oh, that’s just an agency ,then how are we ever going to solve these problems?
Because that’s what’s going to educate. I really feel like that kind of systemic change where blind people are in charge of the agencies, blind people are out there doing the job, some of the employer placement things, some of the job coaching, showing people how it’s done.
We’re not going to make these changes, and we’re not going to help move this employment needle at all.
Jonathan: Okay, I’ve got a proposal. somebody needs to start a site called blind leadership now, and there needs to be a kind of wiki style database which chronicles the degree to which every blindness agency in the world is blindness-led. And we should hold those agencies to account.
Jennifer: Oh, I’d love that.
Jonathan: We should have an index, and we should make this change happen because it’s chronic right now. It’s absolutely chronic, and it’s unacceptable.
Bonnie: Yeah. And a lot of the people that are taking these jobs (and again, we’re not…) They have just as much a right to apply as anyone else. But if there is a qualified person, … Some of them didn’t even come from disability.
Jonathan: Some of them are completely unqualified.
Lia: Yeah.
Bonnie: I mean, I’m not going to name agencies here.
Jonathan: Why not?
Bonnie: But you know, some person who I’m sure is very qualified in his field or whatever, came from retail. I mean, seriously? [laughs]
Jennifer: In Wisconsin, there’s not a specific blindness agency. And this is a huge problem because counselors may never have met a blind person, have no experience with a blind person. And the job developers are shunting people to folding towels.
Bonnie: Yeah.
Jennifer: And there’s nothing wrong with folding towels as an entry level job. But you can’t grow from there. There’s no potential for promotion. That’s fine for high school students, for young people. But to say oh, your case is closed now, adult, at like 25, because now you’re folding towels at the Y, is criminal.
Jonathan: Whenever a sighted person is appointed to a role of leadership in a blindness agency, and we’re aware that a blind person may have applied, or that a blind person was capable of doing the role who could have been shoulder tapped, why isn’t the NFB doing more to call those agencies out?
Lia: My instinct answer is to say that I do suspect this is happening with some frequency, to the point that it’s probably not something we’re always aware of, right?
Bonnie: Yeah.
Lia: Like this is, unfortunately, such a common thing that I suspect that we just don’t know.
Jennifer: Well, are blind people applying?
Bonnie: Yeah, that’s one question.
Jennifer: I know there’s been some discussion, and this is a different thing. But NOMC is Yeah. There’s been some complaints that oh, they’re not working in Wisconsin. My husband who runs a school for the blind has pointed out that none, unfortunately, have applied.
Bonnie: Yeah.
Jennifer: So you can say none were hired. That is true. But if no one applies, they can’t hire them.
Lia: That’s real.
Bonnie: They can’t hire them.
Jennifer: I know that’s not the problem always. But I feel like that is the problem sometimes, and that’s frustrating. And part of that goes back to that, oh, well, you don’t want to be in a blindness role. You know, it goes back there.
Bonnie: Yeah, that’s a good point.
Jonathan: We’ve sat here, and it’s been quite therapeutic, actually.
[laughter]
Jennifer: You’re welcome! We solve the world’s problems.
Bonnie: We’re trying to solve them.
Jonathan: We put the world to rights, have a little rant.
But in the end, what we need is outcomes to change and things to improve. How do you, as co-chairs, ensure that this employment committee is more than a talk fest and more than a kind of a therapeutic rant fest, and that it actually achieves systemic change?
So when I come back next year, where is NFB next year? Do we know yet? When I come back next year and I say to you, what did the NFB employment committee get done in terms of actual measurable change in the last year, what will you be able to say?
Lia: So, I know that I’m only 7 months into this role so you know, take this perhaps with a grain of salt, or wishful thinking or whatever. [laughs]
But I think, especially following the employment committee meeting yesterday, I think we’ve had the opportunity, especially in just the last few weeks to become aware of some more specific areas where we can be communicating better and educating better. We have an employer outreach subcommittee. We just recently had a really good call with somebody from Target. And that was really illuminating some areas to focus on as far as, okay, we really do need to do both employer outreach and educating our community members about certain things with retail work.
Next year, when you come, we’d love to be able to say, look at all the different and new employers that we have at the career fair who are excited to hire blind people.
Jennifer: Yes.
Lia: Yesterday, during the career fair, I was approached by people from 2 companies who were not here, but who were like, how do we do this? How do we be a part of this next year?
Bonnie: Neat! That’s terrific.
Jennifer: Yes, more employers.
I think another thing that we really want to focus on this year is to help people with some of those soft skills.
And today, we’re doing our Seeking Success Seminar. And one of the things we’re really focusing on this morning is how remote work isn’t the answer for everyone. It’s not the thing you should do, just because it’s remote.
Bonnie: Yes.
Jonathan: Right.
Jennifer: And I personally would really like to see people understand that they shouldn’t just say oh, I’m blind. I’ve heard people say this. I don’t want to travel. I won’t have to worry about anything. I’ll just get a remote job.
Bonnie: Yeah.
Jennifer: That should not be the reason you’re getting a remote job. Remote work takes a very unique set of skills.
Jonathan: Yeah.
Jennifer: And you may have them, you may not. But you should be open to all types of jobs. [laughs]
Bonnie: Exactly.
Jennifer: And don’t just get it because it keeps you from having to leave your home.
Jonathan: That’s an important question because during the pandemic, there was a new acceptance of remote working. I know that people with a range of disabilities really felt advantaged by that.
And they said hey, finally. People are kind of catching up with what we’ve been saying – that it’s not so much where you deliver your deliverables from, it’s the quality of what you’re delivering. And whether you deliver it from home or not, it really doesn’t matter.
But even for capable blind travellers, it can be incredibly stressful doing the commutes, and you kind of feel like you’ve done 15 rounds with Mike Tyson before you even enter the office, right?
Jennifer: Yes.
Jonathan: So we’ve got to find a balance there. I mean, I agree with you, Jennifer, that for blind people to think that the only options available to them are remote working options, that’s extreme. And that’s sad because obviously, blind people have been working in offices for years.
Jennifer: Right.
Jonathan: But there are some real advantages, particularly where public transportation is a problem.
Jennifer: Yes, there definitely are.
But you have to understand what you’re getting into, and that you are your own IT, for instance. You can be sort of by yourself. You have to keep yourself motivated. I mean, you have to understand fully. And, there might be travel involved.
I mean, I feel like a hypocrite as I say these things because I’m now working remote.
[laughter]
Jennifer: But there is travel involved. So I have to be able to go to a conference like this, and work in an exhibit booth, and have those skills, network at a reception, like I did last night. Those are all still important. And we do occasionally go into the office.
I think for me, the ideal situation would be hybrid, where I could go in some and work remote some.
Bonnie: Yeah.
Jennifer: Because there’s that connection with co-workers. You do sort of get it on Teams to some extent, but it is nice to…
Bonnie: It is nice to be around people.
Jennifer: Yes.
Bonnie: I mean, and some people would love to just never leave the house and work.
Jennifer: Yes.
Bonnie: But others, they really need that social connection. I mean, I’m one of those.
Lia: Oh, yeah. I am.
Bonnie: And I go, and we have a hybrid situation. We can work, you know, like 1, 2 days a week.
But most people are there, you know. Most people are coming in because we like being around each other.
And like you said, you do have to be disciplined. It’s very easy to flip on Netflix, or go do the laundry. You have to be disciplined.
Lia: I know we’ve talked about this when we were planning the seminar. I’ve been working remotely since the start of the pandemic. I am a child and adolescent therapist, so I see clients all day. It’s very easy to get so wrapped up in work and blink, and like oh God, I haven’t left the apartment for 2 days.
Bonnie: Yeah, yeah, that’s true.
Jonathan: One of the resolutions (and we’re recording this before resolutions have been considered even by the committee). But one that really caught my attention in the employment space relates to what’s going on apparently at Amazon. I actually have been contacted by a listener who has been directly affected by this. Does the Employment Committee have an interest in this topic about the way that Amazon is allegedly Disadvantaging blind people?
Jennifer: Yes. I mean, always. We want to make sure these things aren’t happening.
And I have kind of seen this personally with people being kind of shunted into Amazon, and then being taken advantage of by Amazon. So I don’t know that this is exclusive to blind people. Sadly, I think Amazon, unfortunately, takes advantage of a lot of people.
And I say this as I continue to order from Amazon because it is so convenient.
Jonathan: Right.
Jennifer: But I think it’s a problem that definitely needs to be addressed, and I hope that the Employment committee can be a part of helping with that.
Jonathan: We talked about remote working, and one of the things that is an issue for some blind people, particularly if there’s a hearing impairment bundled with it all, is the rise of open plan offices. Sometimes, it can be quite difficult for blind people to go into the office and be surrounded by chatter while they’re trying to hear their screen reader and get things done. It can be quite an auditorily fatiguing thing.
I guess I’m hoping that the increasing awareness of neurodivergence will help there, because people are more aware as employees now of quiet spaces, and that may help a screen reader user as well.
Jennifer: I think you’re right. I see that being really helpful because people understand the need for having some of that stimulation to go away. And it’s interesting because there’s not like a bunch of visual stuff flashing around in these open plan offices, but there is a lot of noise.
Bonnie: Yeah. Mine’s particularly really noisy. It’s like, is there a party going on around here?
Jonathan: Yeah.
Bonnie: Well, you heard it the other day, sweetie, when I called you. [laughs]
Jonathan: [laughs]
Bonnie: “Where are you?”
“At work.”
Lia: With the open plan offices though, I will say I know so many sighted, completely able-bodied neurotypical people who hate the open plan offices.
Bonnie: Yeah.
Jonathan: Yes.
Lia: I have noticed, certainly. Maybe this is a millennial thing. But at least, my friends outside of the blindness world absolutely detest the open plan offices in such a backlash, which is great because I also think they’re ridiculous and not useful. But there’s more of a universal dislike.
Jonathan: Well, let’s hope so. They can be very difficult environments.
Lia: Yeah, they are.
Jennifer: Yeah.
Bonnie: Hot desking. That’s the other thing.
Jennifer: Oh, is that where you don’t have a specific desk?
Bonnie: You don’t have a desk.
Lia: Oh my God! I’m going to hate that.
Jennifer: Yes, I think that would be a nightmare.
I’ve never been in that situation, but that would be awful because I like my space and being set up how I want.
Bonnie: Yeah. I’m the only one that has their own space in my office, and it’s more because of the dog than anything. [laughs]
Jonathan: This is such a critical subject. I know you both are very busy, so I appreciate you giving us some time.
How can people keep track of what the Employment Committee is doing, and perhaps, offer some input? What’s the process there?
Jennifer: We are working to build a website, so that should be up soon, I’m hoping. We’re working with the National.
There is this website. It was called CEO. and now, what did it stand for? Oh, shoot! I should know.
Bonnie: I guess the E would be employment? [laughs]
Lia: Yeah, yeah.
Jennifer: Employment opportunity. I forget what the C is.
Lia: Center?
Jennifer: Center for Employment and Opportunity, I think.
Bonnie: Oh.
Jennifer: So that is going to be coming up soon, I hope, and that will be a great place for people to keep track of our initiatives and what’s going on.
But people are always welcome to reach out to me. I can give my email if that’s okay.
Jonathan: If you’d like to, sure.
Jennifer: Okay. JenWen319@gmail.com. Please reach out to me.
We meet monthly, on the 3rd Wednesday of the month. And even if you’re not on the committee, we don’t exclude people from our meetings. If people have a contribution, an idea, a thought, we’re always open to hearing that.
And sometimes, we will have the person from Target at our full committee meeting. I forget if we’re going to do it this month or next month. Yeah. That will be one of the things, and we want to try to do that a little more.
And we’re going to be trying to have webinars on different topics like these soft skill type topics, interviewing, dressing for success, that kind of thing. We do do small ones, in preparation for the career fair. So we had one recently that had dress for success and some other great topics on keeping calm in a space that’s noisy that Lia did.
Lia: Oh, yeah.
Jennifer: That was wonderful. Because career fairs can be overwhelming and noisy.
Bonnie: They can be, yes.
Jennifer: And helping keep your calm, and take that deep breath, and orient yourself, and get around that kind of space, Carly Mullins did a great presentation on just the basics of getting around something like that.
Bonnie: Yeah.
Jennifer: We will be having those. Those will go out on the NFB lists, and will also be, I think they go up on the NFB website, and there’ll be recordings of those. That’s the plan for our website that we’re building. So that will all be ways.
Lia: There’s also the Where the Blind Work webinars.
Jennifer: Oh yes, yes.
Lia: There’s always information about that, so people can always check those out. The next one is actually right after convention, I think. [laughs] I think it’ll be a webinar with blind professionals from the STEM fields talking.
Bonnie: Cool. I went to the journalism one. That was really interesting.
Jennifer: Yeah. And those are organized by National, but we’re very supportive of them.
Lia: Yeah, we help out with that.
But yeah, people can absolutely, if they want to get involved, we certainly welcome that. Jennifer gave her email address.
But keeping with the employment theme, I absolutely welcome anybody to contact me on LinkedIn, …
Jennifer: Oh, yes.
Lia: if anybody would like to find me.
Jennifer: They can do that for me, too.
Lia: Lia (L-I-A) Stone (like The Rock) L-S-W. My headline makes it very obvious who I am. I don’t think there are many people with that name. But please find me on LinkedIn, connect with me, and send me a message if you want to get involved with the Employment Committee, or if you have ideas or anything like that. I absolutely welcome that.
Jonathan: Yeah. Because I think, one of the big questions particularly younger people have is first, can a blind person do this job I’m interested in? And usually, the answer is absolutely, they can.
And then, the next question they have is well, can I talk to anybody who’s doing this job?
Jennifer: Yes, we’ve been trying to help make those connections. I know Nikki’s been working on ways to help keep those connections going and making those connections for people. I saw some at the career fair yesterday, some people kind of connecting. And in fact, I met someone that wants a certain job, and I’m going to connect them to a friend of mine that is also looking for that job and going to school for it so doesn’t have it yet, but he may have connections. So sometimes, it’s just building that network.
Bonnie: Networking is so important because all of my jobs, I’ve pretty much gotten through networking.
Jennifer: Yeah.
Lia: Yeah.
Bonnie: And you just never know who you know, you know. You just never know who knows someone. Because a lot of jobs are not even advertised yet.
Jennifer: Right, right. That can be so important. That’s how I got my previous job, not this one. This one was a fluke. I found it on a website and applied.
[laughter]
Lia: Sometimes, that does happen.
Jennifer: It does. Sometimes, that helps.
I mean, it was in the blindness field. People may have known me a bit. But I feel like I got it in just kind of a different way, but that’s okay.
Bonnie: It’s okay, yeah.
Jennifer: But my previous job, I got it before it was even advertised because someone, I mean, I still interviewed and everything, but she was like oh, you’d be perfect for this job. Are you interested?
Jonathan: Yeah. It is nice to get to that point. And of course, for people who are trying to get into employment and just start their journey, it’s much tougher. But it is interesting when you get to a point where the talent scouts contact you.
Lia: Yes.
Bonnie: Yeah.
Jonathan: And I’m quite enjoying that. I kind of get these offers.
[laughter]
Bonnie: I haven’t reached that pinnacle of success yet.
Jennifer: I haven’t quite gotten there yet either, completely. I got there once.
[laughter]
Bonnie: You know you’ve arrived.
Jennifer: Yeah.
Jonathan: Yeah. Gosh!
Look, this has been a really important and fascinating conversation, and thank you all very much for participating in it.
I hope the rest of the convention goes well.
Lia: Yeah.
Jennifer: Thank you so much.
Lia: Thank you so much for having us.
Bonnie: Thank you.
[music]
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Closing
Happy birthday to Pneuma!
Well, it sort of works.
A reminder that as Living Blindfully winds down over the month of September, we are no longer taking contributions. I hope you are enjoying what you are hearing anyway.
And I do anticipate that we will be back soon, probably earlier than normal, with that other piece of the puzzle.
In the meantime, remember that when you’re out there with your guide dog, you’ve harnessed success. And with your cane, you’re able.
[music]