Transcripts of Living Blindfully are made possible by Pneuma Solutions, a global leader in accessible cloud technologies. On the web at http://PneumaSolutions.com.
You can read the full transcript below, download the transcript in Microsoft Word format, or download the transcript as an accessible PDF file.
[music]
Voiceover: From Wellington, New Zealand, to the world, it’s Living Blindfully living your best life with blindness or low vision. Here is your host, Jonathan Mosen.
Hello, and thank you for joining me for this special midweek edition. And it’s special for more reasons than that. It’s time to look with optimism and excitement to the future. As I join the team at the National Federation of the Blind, NFB President Mark Riccobono and I discuss my new role.
Jonathan: Now, I know you want me to get on with it. And I will, I will.
It is episode 299, and we actually do have a country code 299. Hello, Greenland! It has about 56,000 people does Greenland.
I don’t think Greenland’s on the little list of countries when I bring up the stats with our podcast provider that we have listeners in, but you just never know. So if you’re there, hello, hello! Enjoy your moment in the sun.
First, I want to say thank you to everyone who’s been in touch following the announcement of Living Blindfully’s closure. It’s been my honor to have hosted a podcast that is so highly valued and has brought blind people of all ages from all over the world together.
Some of your responses have been really touching. Several people have sent me heartwarming stories about how the podcast has emboldened them to self-advocate and to join organizations of blind people around the world who are making a difference. Some of you have said the podcast has encouraged you to be a bit more adventurous with technology, and that’s great. I’m proud of the legacy that Living Blindfully will leave, and I hope we’ll all stay in close touch as we look to an exciting future.
As I said in the previous episode, I knew that if I took up a new opportunity, it’d have to be meaningful. It would have to be of service to the community that I care about so much and have been an active part of.
To discuss that future which fits so well with the values that have been at the core of Living Blindfully, I’m joined by Mark Riccobono, who is President of the National Federation of the Blind. Welcome, Mark! Good to have you here.
Mark: Thank you, Jonathan. Pleasure to be here.
Jonathan: Well, to begin with, I’d like to just hand you the virtual floor so that you can address Living Blindfully listeners about what’s happening.
Mark: Okay. Well, I appreciate that.
Let me, since this is an opportunity here officially on the Living Blindfully platform, congratulate you again on receiving the Federation’s Bolotin Award. And I guess, I would say congratulate the audience because we know that the engagement of blind people is one of the key factors that made Living Blindfully the platform that it has been and that made it something that our Bolotin Award Committee felt needed recognition at the time, and that it was recognized this summer at the convention.
The convention recognition also provided an opportunity for you and I, Jonathan, to start having conversations, or maybe continuing conversations about the overall global blind community and things that we want to do. I think that’s something that you and I have slowly cultivated over some time through very honest and open conversations, right? [laughs]
And as part of that conversation after the convention, it occurred to me that from the perspective of the National Federation of the Blind, we know that our operations are in the United States. All of our membership elects leaders in the United States, so our focus is really here.
But since really the 1960s, when Dr. Jacobus tenBroek first founded the International Federation of the Blind, there’s always been a strong recognition amongst the members of the National Federation of the Blind and within the leadership of our organized blind movement here that there’s a lot to gain from engaging with blind people all over the world, and there’s a lot to give too, in that process. And so we’ve been doing that first with the International Federation of the Blind, and now through the World Blind Union.
And the second part of that is we know that with technology being a global industry and all of the major major players in that space, really being US companies, the Federation has an advocacy responsibility really to blind people all over the world to make sure we’re pushing as hard as we can, not just for accessibility in the US, but to make sure those companies are adequately addressing other nations where they may be creating very strong accessibility tools, but they might think well, those other countries though, it’s not real priority.
So we recognize an opportunity and a responsibility. And as I’ve got to reflecting upon that, I recognize that Jonathan Mosen would be an individual who could help the National Federation of the Blind provide strategic leadership in our technology, our accessibility, and our communication spaces really to build capacity for our organization in this nation. But also, to bring in some of those connections and influences amongst blind people that we need and want to have all over the world.
And so I guess, this would be the official Living Blindfully announcement that I’m pleased that Jonathan and I have come to an agreement about what a working relationship would look like, and have Jonathan coming on to do strategic work with the National Federation of the Blind, which will include (although we haven’t worked out all of the future details) some form of podcast. We can’t say it would be Living Blindfully because nothing will be Living Blindfully, right? [laughs] But it will be different. It will have, I think, based on knowing Jonathan and knowing our organization, the same heart and engagement of blind people, and the same hard-hitting topics. Is that fair to say, Jonathan?
Jonathan: I think it’s fair to say, yes. I couldn’t be more delighted by this.
And you’ve highlighted some themes that we can explore in this conversation. You mentioning the global impact that the National Federation of the Blind’s technology advocacy has reminded me of some of the remarks that I made when you asked me to address the National Convention in 2023, and I said this.
[start of recording]
The companies that develop the major operating systems and much of the hardware we use are based here in the United States. So blind people everywhere are counting on you to be articulate, focused, and resolute, advocating in a way that honors your proud traditions. Any success you have in bringing about more accessible technology has a direct positive benefit to many millions of blind people beyond your borders.
[end of recording]
Obviously, I had no idea at all that 14 months after saying those things, I’d be playing this key role in delivering those advocacy initiatives. So no pressure, Jonathan. [laughs]
Technology is such a critical area, and I know that you’ve been contemplating taking technology advocacy to a new level within the Federation for some time now. Why has the Federation decided to do this now, specifically? What are the catalysts?
Mark: You know, our movement has been involved in technology in so many ways, going back many many decades working with early technologies, giving feedback on technologies, coordinating blind people who wanted to build technologies. Of course, our longest sustained relationship is with Ray Kurzweil, and our work with Ray has rippled into all sorts of places where that technology is now really everywhere.
And in 1990, we established the International Braille and Technology Center. At that time, there was no real consumer reports of blindness technology. And of course, in 1990, the technologies mostly were specialized commercialized technologies screen reading software, Braille displays. They were all add-ons. And especially as we got into the Windows environment, the graphical user interface, a lot of these became third-party add-ons.
In the last 20 years, a major shift’s been happening there, right? Because our expectations of blind people have really shifted to expecting that these big tech companies especially, but also the little ones, are building technology to include us from the beginning.
And the range of technologies and the types that are available has really exploded, right? It’s not just what’s on our desk at work. It’s what are the technical components and interfaces in our home appliances, and can we use them? Can we wash our clothes because we can use the controls on those things? How do we get access to information through now a number of talking interfaces which are good for us, but do they interact with other components that have accessibility?
And then, of course, one of the most important things that always comes to mind for me are emerging heavy use of home medical devices that great advancement in technology that all of us can manage our healthcare better at home, but a true disadvantage to blind people if we don’t have independent real access to those things. Those are just some examples, lots of other areas of technology.
So why now? Well, 2 things.
One is coming out of the pandemic, our board really wanted to do was refocus and be strategic, and recognize that our organization got stronger during the pandemic because we connected a lot of people together. And coming out, we have a lot of people that want to do more to include blind people in society.
Number 2, it’s time for us to really rethink the International Braille and Technology Center because the landscape of technology has changed because of our success.
So those are really the 2 big factors.
The next evolution of our International Braille and Technology Center is not new. We’ve been talking about it for a few years. It’s just one of those things where you know there’s a lot of competing priorities. And so I think, coming out of the convention it’s one of those things that clicked for me, like oh, I could talk to Jonathan and see if he would be interested in this vision that I have from talking to blind people throughout our community.
Jonathan: Yes, we’ll talk about the talks a bit later in a bit of depth. [laughs]
But I think what’s interesting is that so often, as I’ve seen doing this podcast, the Federation’s ambitions and Living Blindfully Listeners’ ambitions are just so similar, so overlapping.
We’ve just been talking about the frustration that many blind people are feeling over accessible medical devices, and the Federation’s been doing some epic work in that space with pending legislation.
The other one too, is hearing aid manufacturers. If you are blind and you also have the added bonus of a hearing impairment, it’s not fair, it’s not acceptable to have yet another frustration, which is you have to think which hearing aid manufacturer has an app that works with my assistive technology. And all those things are a barrier to living the life we want.
So there’s a lot that we share in terms of the Living Blindfully audience and the Federation’s priorities here, and the things that listeners have brought to our attention through the Living Blindfully community can actually be put into action with this new role that we’re announcing today.
Mark: Absolutely.
And I should say, I am a Living Blindfully listener also. But a lot of times, before I get to the podcast, a member or leader of the Federation would say hey, did you hear that this came up on Living Blindfully? We have something to say about it, or some information whether it’s about global standards for quiet cars, or like you say, medical devices.
I think the important thing there is, that’s because we’ve built a community that’s about people, and especially in the area of technology, it’s not possible to put a team in a room and say, evaluate all the technologies out there, and let blind people know how they work or not. No, that’s not going to happen anymore. We could do that in 1990 because the universe was somewhat manageable. But 30 plus years later, can’t happen, so the effort has to be driven by the community. And what better way to do it but from the community itself?
Jonathan: Yeah, the landscape’s changed so much.
I remember being on the other side of it, too. when you had a small number of assistive technology companies to deal with who were totally committed to the blindness market, that’s what they did. That’s how they earned their revenue. If they let the blind community down, then their bottom line suffered.
I remember having some very rigorous, robust, and perfectly appropriate questioning from federation leaders at that time, and I was with Humanware, or Freedom Scientific, or even Aira about the things that those companies were doing.
Now though, the scale has just increased so much, and it’s become so much more complex because we might not be afforded the priority that we believe we should be with some of these larger companies that have become assistive technology companies, but are also massive mainstream corporations.
Mark: Oh, Definitely. And yeah, that’s ongoing fear, right, is what happens if one of the magnificent 7 Tech companies decides we’re not going to put as much resource into accessibility? I think the beauty of it is we have built The global blind community and our connections enough power to really push back hard on those folks.
But the reality is too, especially in the US (but I think other places), but in the US, the maturity of the National Federation of the Blind is we’re not on the outside knocking on the door all the time, like we used to be. A lot of times, we are invited at the table. And a lot of times, we set the table because we call the meetings, and we need to be able to firmly, clearly, and with the technical prowess, articulate what the needs are and what folks are getting wrong, but then also offer our assistance.
Just Living Blindfully has covered very well the whole Sonos situation. I mean, it’s wonderful that we were then, as a community in the Federation helped quite a bit with this, able to get them more blind people in their pipeline to give them feedback on beta and testing, right?
Because a lot of times, these companies say, “I’d love to have blind people. I don’t know where to find them.” So if they don’t know who we are and what we do, then they have the easy excuse.
Jonathan: Yeah.
Mark: So our job is to get in the door and be a partner so that, no, you can’t say you couldn’t find blind people because the Federation’s a partner.
Jonathan: That’s a good example of how we’ve informally been working together, in fact, because a listener alerted me who was testing this app and actually was a whistleblower because they were under a non-disclosure agreement. And I think there are times you have to think very very carefully about this. But there are times when you do have to blow the whistle. And in that case, because he was absolutely clear it was going to have a huge impact on the blind community, he made a call of integrity to blow the whistle.
I informed people, and then NFB were able to pick that up and use its skills and its gravitas, frankly, and its influence to move that campaign forward. So we’ve been working on these things kind of informally, I guess you’d have to say.
Mark: Yeah, I think it would be. I have said to NFB members that, I mean, if you pay attention to The values that Jonathan Mosen has expounded through his many communications over many decades, there’s no doubt that his philosophical direction fits perfectly within the center of the wisdom of the blind community that we’ve built in the Federation.
And that’s the other thing, right, is when we talk about the organized blind movement, there’s a lot of people. You don’t see them in an elected position, necessarily. But from their place in the community, they’re making those little ripples, or sharing key information, or putting up a smoke signal about what’s coming that they may be knowing about before a lot of us. And that’s what really helps us as a community respond very quickly, and often proactively.
Jonathan: The timing couldn’t be better in terms of illustrating why this revamped technology strategy is so critical. We have plenty of listener feedback coming in right now telling us that there are presently 3 iOS apps used by many blind people every day produced by large corporate entities that were accessible days or weeks ago. And now, they have serious issues.
Technology is playing an increasing role, as you say, in the lives of us all. And when it breaks for blind people, it does significantly impede the ability to live the life we want.
So what does success look like to you? You’re working with this Mosen guy who’s known to be a staunch advocate (I think the wording the Federation is using in its media is fearless advocate), and I’ll gladly own that. So what does success look like? What do you hope this will all mean to the lives of blind people?
Mark: In one sense, we can measure success. In another, we can’t.
Let me start with the part that we can’t measure. I think the goal is, success will look like increased and ongoing sustained engagement by the community in these conversations that are being generated through the Federation. We can’t bring forward the hopes and dreams of blind people without having thousands and thousands of blind people having those discussions.
So beyond creating policies and standards, all of it starts from the conversation that blind people are having. And so I think a huge success piece is expanding the conversation within the National Federation of the Blind about these technologies, these priorities, and where our energy should be focused. So that’s the kind of community piece, like further expanding our community engagement not just in the US, but with blind friends around the world where we’ve always, for many decades now, have recognized there’s a lot for us to learn.
We sit in a little bit of a place of privilege related to technology because a lot of these companies are US companies, and we want to learn from others around the world. And sometimes, others around the world are getting the governmental accessibility standards a little better than the US, so there’s something to learn there, too.
But part 2, which I guess is the more measurable part, is as we strategically realign our work in this area, I think success looks like establishing new forward-looking platforms for our International Braille and Technology Center that bring to scale not just our technology advocacy work, but our information to the blind community about what works and what doesn’t.
that was one of the original goals with the IBTC is if you need a Braille display, the manufacturers will always tell you that the Cadillac model is the one you need. But maybe, you don’t need the Cadillac to do what you want to do. Or maybe, you do need a Cadillac because the specifics of the job you’re trying to do does require a higher set of skills.
So we wanted to be that independent advice to blind people. As we’ve already said, you can’t do that today with a team of folks. We need the community and the wisdom of the community to share that. That happens every day on NFB listservs and other places. So I think success looks like new 21st century platforms for sharing, disseminating, and engaging blind people in those areas.
Now, policy success, getting companies to enculturate accessibility, getting the government to implement true policies, all of those will also be indicators of success, but it will all come from those community, success benchmarks, which are, I think, the heart and soul of why a movement is needed.
Jonathan: And clearly, there are a couple of NFB divisions with enormous expertise and interest in this area. Since NFB is a grassroots member-driven organization, how can members have input in shaping the strategy in the direction that technology advocacy will take?
Mark: It’s a great question. I would say certainly, any of our national divisions or committees will have some degree of interest in the technology accessibility space. And so we always are inviting those entities to recognize their job is to advise the national board between conventions on these topics.
And I think, one of the things that we’ll be doing, without a doubt, is sending Jonathan Mosen out to them to solicit that feedback. I mean, the reality is we can’t do everything tomorrow, right? It’s going to be a progression. But it’s not just where do you send your email? But I think it’s going to be engaging with our science and engineering division, our computer science division, our access tech trainers division, and others.
And then, another key one, I would think, is our employment committee, where the issues of inaccessibility are being talked about there every day because a lot of times, those are the barriers.
What I would say also for the global blind community is we love to hear from blind people all over the world. Besides our convention, many people all over the world read the Braille monitor, and send us letters and suggestions through that vehicle. So to any blind person in the world, know that we want to hear from you, especially about the concerns that you have where US technology companies are not meeting the mark because then, we can leverage our expertise and the fact that we’re right here to help with that.
Jonathan: And I should say I’m a creature of habit, right? So I’m used to sitting here on Living Blindfully asking questions, and then letting the guest have an answer. But this is actually a conversation rather than interview.
I’ll chime in here and say that whenever I assume a new role, my top priority is to soak things up like a sponge. I don’t think it’s wise for anyone in any new organization to come in thinking they have the answers, and I certainly don’t. So I look forward to talking to key people in the Federation and just learning what they would like to see happen, learning how things are now, and building this together because that’s the nature of a grassroots consumer movement.
You talked earlier about the Sonos example. And one of the things that I think we can do there is have some sort of red alert system. I’m really interested in doing this because sometimes, as you say, somebody has that little bit of nugget of intelligence that can save us from grief, like installing an inaccessible version of the app. And if we can have some way of, say, somebody doing that by accident and then realizing, oh my goodness! There’s a crisis here for the community. If they go ahead and install this, we can verify that, and then get the word out via some sort of red alert system. That can be very impactful.
So sometimes, it is necessary to mobilize the masses in that way, maybe have a campaign to respectfully request with our might that something is reversed and remedied quickly.
But what we really want, I think, is for us to be involved at the product conception stage, the design stage, during all of that element of product review, so that we’re a valued, trusted partner. Because nothing substitutes for actual blind people influencing the technology that we use for accessibility being at the foundation.
And with quality relationships like that, it minimizes the prospect of those problems occurring in the first place. Or if they do occur, we can communicate their impact quickly and see remediation quickly. Those relationships take time to build, and they also require high trust on both sides.
This actually segues us to the conversations you and I have been having about Living Blindfully. I know there’s a bit of feeling out there and questions about this.
If we foster those relationships in good faith, clearly, I’m going to know about products and services that are being designed, information about product roadmaps that’s highly commercially sensitive. And you and I have struggled with this question. We’ve agonized about this question. We’ve sliced and diced it every which way, because we both know the value that Living Blindfully is adding.
But in the end, it was I who came to you and said, “I’ve thought about this very carefully, and I won’t be able to serve the Federation optimally if people from the companies that we’re advocating to are worried that something I know might end up on Living Blindfully, even by accident.” It is so easy to want to give people reassurance that the matter that they’re concerned about is in hand more than they realize. And then I’ve accidentally broken a non-disclosure agreement, and that breaches trust.
The other complicating factor regarding keeping Living Blindfully going is that I’m now proudly serving the organized blind movement, so priorities are determined from the grassroots. The price that you happily pay for occupying such a critical role is that you pursue the organization’s priorities and not your own.
And if I’m on Living Blindfully passionately talking about the things that matter to me personally, people will understandably be confused about when is he talking as a Living Blindfully host, and when is he speaking on behalf of the Federation? We’ve had long discussions about this, right?
Mark: Yeah. I mean, the Living Blindfully community is a beautiful thing. And you might say well, it’s just kind of reflective of hundreds of ways for blind people to connect. But it matters the form and substance of how it’s done, and you have cultivated a space that is powerful and safe, and allows people to share their points of view (sometimes, differing points of view or perspectives). And then, people can make the judgments they want.
So as a blind person myself, I think, oh God! I can’t imagine not having Living Blindfully around in my feed, you know. [laughs]
But you do then say, okay, but there’s lots of things we can do, and should do.
And together, I do have faith that we can do even more together, even though at first, there’ll be a void because it’ll take some time for us to build that next thing together.
One thing that, as you were talking, came to mind, it’s easy to be the ones always pounding on the table all the time saying, you all should have done this or that.
Jonathan: Right.
Mark: The Federation has the technology space, especially. But in many others, we’ve developed now over a number of decades this nuance of really having some of those inside conversations.
I always start every conversation with partners saying, your friends are the ones who tell you even the things you don’t want to hear. Our resolutions are a good example. Many a partner of ours, a convention sponsor, has been in the uncomfortable position of being at the convention, and a resolution is offered holding their feet to the fire. Some of them don’t always react friendly about it. [laughs]
But I always go to them and have the same conversation. “Look. When you said you wanted to work with the community of blind people, you said you wanted to work with us. And that means we’re going to tell you when real everyday blind people are being hindered.”
And so often, in these tech companies especially, what they’re doing works for the folks that are brilliant with technology. And by the way, it’s not me. I consider myself very much an average everyday user. But even for me, I’m still probably ahead of the curve for most blind people who the technology, they’re not comfortable with it or that sort of thing.
And our role is always to represent the average everyday blind person, not just the brilliant tech whiz that can get it to work. So that does put us in some uncomfortable spots.
The beauty of it, Jonathan, is we know that if we’re not being tough enough, the community will let us know. [laughs]
Jonathan: And the Federation’s not afraid to get tough, either. It’s a tool in the toolbox, right?
Mark: Yeah, absolutely.
Jonathan: I mean, if all conversations are exhausted, you have to pursue other options. But you’ve got to be clear that the conversation is exhausted first.
Mark: Yeah, definitely.
And a good example, I know another area that’s been covered on Living Blindfully, right, are rideshare companies.
I’ll pick on Uber. I mean, we’ve sued Uber. We’ve been down that road. We’ve had many other conversations with Uber. We’re still having ongoing conversations.
But we decided, okay. The time has come for us to get more aggressive in terms of letting the public know how significant this issue is. So on October 15th, a bunch of blind people are going to come to San Francisco, and we’re going to visit the rideshare companies, at least the outside of their buildings, and let people know.
It’s not a new issue. We’ve been working on it for years now, talking about it for years, having meetings with the companies, all sorts of things. But it’s time to take it to the next level.
So that’s where the excitement is is that although Living Blindfully will feel like a loss, I think we can bring a lot more things to scale together, and I’m really excited to see what kind of engagement comes from the community.
Jonathan: I’m incredibly excited as well.
A couple of points I wanted to pick up on from what you just said.
One is that one of the things that kept me going, even with a very stressful, more well over 40 hour a week CEO job, doing living blindfully was exactly what you said, that I know I hear from so many listeners who have listened to this podcast because they understand the promise of this technology, and it frustrates them that they don’t feel able to fulfill that promise completely because things are so darn complicated. And there has to be an equilibrium point here, I think, between making sure that people get good access to quality blindness training, but you shouldn’t need a degree in astrophysics to use the stuff either. And we’ve got to get there, and we’ve got to make sure that that is dealt with.
The other thing is too, (and Bonnie has been an incredible sounding board for me, very supportive, and I’m just the luckiest person out there). We discussed this long and hard, the pros and cons. And one of the things I ended up saying to Bonnie was, I hear so many people calling in or writing into Living Blindfully every week expressing a concern about how a technology company is letting them down, or how they see a possibility that isn’t yet fulfilled. And the general gist of the message is, someone needs to do something about this.
So to be that person who was leading the Federation’s efforts to be the people that do something about it is great, because I’ve had all this schooling from the community over all these years. And now, we can actually put some of these suggestions into practice by continuing to build on these quality relationships.
Mark: Well, I think the beauty of it too, and what’s really important, you in your approach have taken the philosophy, which is the philosophy of the National Federation of the blind, that we can bring things to scale together.
But it starts with making sure that we’re doing what we can as individuals to live our best lives, right? It’s not just an automatic. We have work to do to make sure we’re getting ourselves in position to do that. And sometimes, that means standing up against wrongdoing. Sometimes, it means recognizing we do need to invest a little bit in our own skills and talents.
Technology is not the thing that has made blind people successful. But technology, when it’s accessible, has allowed us to utilize those talents that we’ve cultivated to live the lives we want.
Jonathan: It’s a tool.
One reaction that I’ve seen, and you alluded to the Bolotin Award when you made your remarks at the top, but I’ve seen this on social media, and some people are saying, (understandably, I get this), “Wow! NFB just gave the guy an award for this podcast. And now, he’s shutting the podcast down? [laughs]
So I think it’s important that we talk about this and say that these awards take time, obviously, especially when you’re flying somebody over from the other side of the world.
It was a wee while ago when I got the word that Living Blindfully was receiving a Bolotin Award. You and I had not started any kind of formal negotiations about me working for the organized blind movement at that time.
And I think it’s also fair to say that we kind of used some of the Bolotin Award grant in advance to record the interviews that we have recorded at the convention. We are running all of those before Living Blindfully ends because we had to get all the way to the United States and accommodation, all that kind of thing. So we are delivering on the award already with the material that we’re running.
But I just wondered if you wanted to comment any further on the Bolotin Award, and give NFB members in particular some assurance about that.
Mark: Yeah, of course.
Sometimes, it’s interesting the way the stars align and things happen. And then, you have to deal with how people want to reimagine what the timeline was.
But let’s start with the Bolotin Award Committee. I appoint the Bolotin Award Committee. Everette Bacon has served as its chairman this past year, and the committee is responsible for going out and soliciting nominations, and then picking the best suite of potential awardees.
It actually is empowered to say We got nothing here. [laughs] Skip it. Every year so far, it has found and gotten through our membership worthwhile nominations. And a number of those nominations and awards have been international, which I think speaks to our interest in this area.
So the committee does its work, and then provides a report to me about who it intends to award, and that sort of thing. We keep it confidential until the convention because we want a little surprise and sizzle at the convention.
So that conversation happened without any involvement from me. I mean, the committee told me once they had deliberated that they were selecting Living Blindfully, and I thought, that’s brilliant! I wouldn’t have thought of that.
Jonathan: [laughs]
Mark: I do send the committee ideas when I see cool projects out there that I think are making a difference.
But it was really then, Jonathan, your attendance in the convention and some conversations that we started talking about. And I guess what I’d say about the Bolotin Award itself is our Bolotin Awards are to recognize projects, or individuals, or organizations that already have been making an innovative difference.
These are not grants saying, go forth and build your project. If you’re a startup, you cannot win a Bolotin Award. So the award is truly to acknowledge that the Bolotin Award recipients have made a difference.
Now, our hope is, of course, that work will continue. And not only that it will continue, but that especially for Bolotin Award winners who don’t have an existing relationship with the Federation, that we’ll be able to build a relationship and make that work even more impactful to blind people.
In this case, I would say it worked out that while Living Blindfully is not continuing, I think the work will continue to impact blind people.
But those two things are really disconnected, and I would say it’s only because you were at the convention and receiving the Bolotin Award that really kind of sparked us continuing to have what turned out to be many many hours of conversations, and some agony about this pathway.
But the other thing I’d say specifically to Federation members is can’t let the circumstances of the award get in the way of strategically doing what we need to do. If some people feel like there was a quid pro quo here, I can’t do anything about that, right?
Jonathan: Oh, gosh!
Mark: I think anybody who is a Living Blindfully listener knows that 100%, without a doubt, and i hope every federation member believes Living Blindfully was worthy of a Jacob Bolotin Award, without any doubt.
And the fact that we’re able to now move into a future where we can work together employing your talents, Jonathan, in the work that we need to do for blind people, that’s a win-win. The Bolotin Award, in one sense, gave us the opportunity to be in the same space to start talking about it.
Jonathan: Absolutely.
Let’s talk more about the process that’s led us to working together, because it was considerably more complicated than you just calling me up one day and saying hey, Jonathan, do you want to come and work for the Federation? [laughs] There has to be chemistry there, I think. And perhaps I could start us off by filling in some gaps that not everybody will be aware of.
I became acquainted with NFB all the way back in the 1980s through the CompuServe information service. There’ll be many listeners for whom CompuServe wasn’t even there when they were born. We’re talking a long time ago now, but it was very impactful at the time.
My life really was changed by reading NFB literature and interacting with Federationists online back then. It inspired me so much that as a young leader, I applied for and was ultimately given a grant of funding to attend the NFB convention. I really wanted to go to one of these and find out what it was like. Were these guys the real deal?
So I got to my first NFB convention in Chicago in 1995, And the only condition there was that I wrote a comprehensive report when I got home. and I wrote a comprehensive report. I was brimming with ideas, and it wasn’t exactly onerous to write that report.
My second convention was in 1997, in New Orleans. That was an amazing venue, so I’m looking forward to next year.
And I also, under much sadder circumstances, flew over for Dr. Jernigan’s funeral back in 1998. I felt a strong calling to pay my respects, given all that he had done for me, even though I only met him once, and he obviously wouldn’t have realized the impact he had on this young guy from the other side of the world.
And shortly after that, I was published in the Braille Monitor for the first time.
I’ve attended quite a few conventions over the years. I think I counted them, and there’s at least 10 that I’ve attended.
And when I do attend them, it really feels like going home. It feels like I’m with my people, the people who view blindness the same way that I view blindness.
When I worked in the assistive tech industry, as I mentioned, I met with Federation leaders quite a bit regularly. I remember some pretty robust discussions with people like Curtis and Taylor, and they had our feet to the fire quite rightly.
But you and I really go back to working together closely in 2022, and that was for the We’re With You concert. We raised well over $100,000 for Ukrainian refugees back then, thanks to a marathon concert by amazing blind musicians aired on over 20 internet radio stations.
And that came together incredibly quickly, thanks to the Federation, particularly the social media, the logo that the Federation designed, the fundraising infrastructure that the Federation provided. And working with you and the crew from NFB on that project just showed me all over again that NFB, it’s focused, it’s organized, it gets stuff done.
We’ve kept in touch since then. But during the specific conversations that have led up to this point, I think we really sounded each other out quite carefully, really, and deeply. We challenged each other because it’s going from being a chief executive, to working for you. And I’m absolutely happy to work for you. It is a fair question. Am I going to be happy working for someone again after having that role? So it was important for us to be sure about that.
It was a big decision for us both. It’s been a rigorous process, right? How’s it been from your perspective?
Mark: Yeah. Well, I think you’ve characterized it quite well.
Despite the power of the Federation, we recognize that the Federation is made up of people. It’s really the people that power what we do.
The We’re With You concert is a great example of, Jonathan, you had all the right talent to do what was needed on the delivery of the performances and conversation part of it. That was a lot of work on your part.
I had reached out early on to the World Blind Union to say, we’re watching what’s happening, and we’re very concerned about blind people. It’s not the Federation’s role to step in because we’re a US Organization, but that’s why we’re part of the World Blind Union. What’s the World Blind Union doing? And talking with Mark Workman, we were able to engineer this, and we said, we’ll lead the effort from the US, and put the Federation oomph into it, but it has to be a World Blind Union thing.
So I bring that up to say that, I think, was very formative in terms of recognizing the synergies.
And jonathan, you’ve never been afraid to say if you had an opinion about how something could work better, or that sort of thing.
Jonathan: [laughs] I do have opinions from time to time.
Mark: Yeah. But you know, that’s okay.
And especially, in having conversations, I think what I began to get comfortable with (and I did ask all of the hard questions here) was look, if anybody has met leaders of the Federation, they are not shy people.
What I think concerns, or where people want to draw an incorrect inference that the Federation is made up of brainwashed individuals who all march in the same direction. It’s because we have a lot of those debates and conversations behind closed doors.
Jonathan: Right.
Mark: Why would we do this? Or why wouldn’t we do that?
And then, when we come out, we agree, okay, we’ve got a strategy. We know what we want to do. We’re going in that direction.
And so it’s not that we’re all brainwashed. It’s that we’ve all pushed and pulled and agonized with each other. And then at the end, it’s like, okay, here’s the best of the worst things we could do. Let’s go do it. And I think it’s that unity that works.
So I would also say, Jonathan, though, that it’s very clear in these conversations that your heart is in it. It’s not just about doing work together. It means something to you, and you can recognize that in people when you spend enough time talking to them.
I mean obviously, there are people who are trying to build a career. They’re trying to advance themselves.
But you can tell when people’s heart is in it. I think anybody who’s listened to Living Blindfully has observed it. But definitely, in our conversations some hard conversations, agonizing conversations, I can tell that your heart is in it.
And that’s what’s exciting to me is we’re trying to build a movement that has real people, which means it has real feeling and emotion. And so, yeah, synergy is a great word because that’s the best way to describe it. And I think that’s why it’s unfolded the way it has.
Jonathan: Yes. And I absolutely understand the conversations that we had about accepting the will of the collective because here I am, as an individual on my own platform here, being able to say exactly what I like.
But it is also fair to say that I couldn’t have survived as a chief executive, as a senior leader in a number of assistive technology companies, if I didn’t have the pragmatism to offer my opinion, but realize that you can’t win them all. And I suspect that that will be even easier for me to accept in an organization where decisions are taken from the grassroots and after careful discussion than even some of the corporate roles that I’ve held.
I’ve done my best during this discussion to make sure I turn my sentimentality down a few notches. But I cannot resist saying that if people had asked me what my dream job would be, it would be doing exactly this using the skills I’ve developed in comms, product management, and advocacy in technology, and working with the National Federation of the Blind, which just comprises so many people who I identify with.
Those weeks that Bonnie and I spend at convention are just so special because we are surrounded by great people, stimulating conversations, challenging discussions. So this is not something I ever expected to have the opportunity of doing, particularly since I am not an American. But it is very exciting. And I think in the end, the combination for us both of the possibilities and the genuine I’m going to give this 100 plus percent, I think that’s what made this work.
Mark: Yeah. And sometimes, there’s a lot of things that are planned, scoped out ahead of time.
We’re doing work in the National Federation of the Blind to build the first museum of the blind people’s movement many many years away. We’re working on it today.
Jonathan: I was going to say, when’s that happening?
Mark: [laughs] Yeah yeah yeah. Many years away still. But then, there are some things where the opportunities arise, the whatever circumstances align, and you have to realize when it’s right to take a risk. And I would say, Jonathan, all the good words. I mean, this is a risk, right? It’s a risk for you. It’s a risk for me. I’m optimistic that it’s going to be awesome, but there is an element of risk, right? Because we’ve both had to think carefully about what it would look like, and make, I would say, sacrifices to make sure it can work all the way around.
And so, there’s a risk. But of course, we know that nothing interesting happens without risk. As blind people, there’s no risk if you never go out of your house. But how boring!
Jonathan: Yeah. I would certainly never want anyone to think that it was easy for me to just discard Living Blindfully. It was one of the toughest decisions of my life. I love doing this, And I know the impact that it’s having and the place it has on people’s lives.
So you’re right. It’s a risk, and it’s a tough call. But in the end, the immense opportunities just won out, you know?
Mark: Yeah. Yeah.
Jonathan: NFB’s been changing lives and attitudes for 84 years now. It’s an incredible legacy.
Each president’s led for their time, and they’ve evolved the organization as society has evolved. And that’s what I think has assured the ongoing relevance of the Federation.
And because of that long history, there are some people who will be listening to this now who have a perception of the organization that does not reflect the NFB of 2024. And I raise this because we’ve had some discussions on Living Blindfully about blind people who judge harshly those with, say, poor travel skills, or other blindness skills.
And there may be people listening to this discussion who want to look at the Federation. They want to be a part of this exciting advocacy movement for technology that we’re launching here, but they may share some of those misgivings.
So I did want to ask you as president. Who is welcome in the National Federation of the Blind?
Mark: It’s a great great question.
I firmly believe that there is space in the National Federation of the Blind for any blind person who wants to truly participate actively, right? I mean, we don’t want people just to pay their yearly membership dues, and then we’ll see you next year when it’s time for me to pay my dues again. We want people to be active in the movement and come to be part of our advocacy work, and that sort of thing.
What does that look like?
Well, let me share that recently, I had a group of 21 emerging leaders from across many of our affiliates who came here to our national headquarters in Baltimore to spend 3 days working intensely and closely with me. Almost every one of those individuals would share with you a story that happened to them, or that they observed happening to someone else where another blind person, who happened to be a member of the National Federation of the Blind, made them or made somebody else who was blind not feel welcome in the movement.
And this is where I often say, the biggest problem with the people’s movement is the people. [laughs] The Federation often gets labeled because of the actions that one person took, or two people took. That is a very tricky space for me serving as president because I end up talking with people about how the overall culture and nature of the organization is not represented by one bad interaction.
Having said that, we’ve also been working really hard as an organization to make sure that we are fulfilling on the brand that we want to have. And being welcoming and inviting is part of our brand. We also believe that being innovative and inspirational is part of our brand.
So what I have always loved about the Federation is that it has always, and can encourage us even today me, as a blind person, to go even further than I have gone, to push even harder whether it’s in making sure that I’m utilizing the best of my non-visual skills to do the things that I want to do. Maybe it’s trying something new that I haven’t tried before. It’s always pushing. Now sometimes, people view the pushing as, I have to be a certain type of blind person.
I would only encourage, don’t misunderstand blind people in our organization encouraging you to continue to be even better as a judgment, because especially when people are newly blind, or maybe they haven’t had training and opportunities in the same way that other people have, my experience is that members of the National Federation of the Blind who have experienced the pain of not having those skills, of not seizing opportunities because they didn’t feel like they could as a blind person, they want so desperately for you not to make the same mistake that they push a little too hard. There are a lot of times when it comes from a very good place of don’t make the same mistake I made.
And so yes, I will be the first to tell you, I wish I could wave my magic long white cane and change it. But unfortunately, you may run into someone who’s going to push a little too hard. Or for that matter, their viewpoint is a little too aggressive.
In the same way that I hear from people who are blind but has some residual vision. Well, there’s no place in the Federation for me because it’s all about people who are totally blind.
Not true at all. But of course, we don’t parse out the language like the folks in the vision industrial complex do, so some people have a hard time getting their mind around what do you mean we’re all blind people?
So all that’s to say, especially those of you out there who want to be part of a community of people who are blind or low vision, the Federation is a place for you.
And the problem is, from my perspective, if we don’t have your perspective in the mix, we’re missing out. I also believe though that if you don’t have our community in your life, you’re missing out.
And so, I hope that we can meet in the middle and find a way to influence each other’s lives. And I think that’s where the beauty of this community really shines.
Jonathan: This is probably the last chance I’ll have to say this on my own platform, so I’ll take that opportunity and say that as you know, when we last talked on the podcast, we had a very robust discussion. And that’s because I realize I’m in a privileged position. I try to put myself in the listener’s place and think, what would they like me to ask this person? And I feel like I’m doing it for them.
And so we had that conversation, and I got a lot of very positive feedback about that. I know that some people thought I might have been a little hard.
What really is a testimony to your leadership and emotional intelligence is that you and I are still talking. You answered some tough questions, and here we are announcing this amazing thing today.
I want to just tell you from the heart how much I have come to respect you as a leader. This is coming from someone who has done a bit of leading himself. I think you possess extraordinary emotional intelligence, gravitas, and leadership, and it’s my honor to be working for you on this mission. So thank you for all you’ve contributed and all that you are as well, because you’re a shining example.
And often, particularly in these last couple of days when there’s been one or two little niggles on social media, I check myself and I think, in this situation, what would President Riccobono do? And I think if you’ve got yourself in that kind of position where you have become a mentor and a model, that’s something very significant. And I think you can be very proud of all that you’ve achieved as a leader.
Mark: Well thank you, and very humbling for you to say so. I appreciate it.
I think my good friend, Norma Crosby, who is the president of the National Federation of the Blind of Texas at this year’s convention, when she was re-elected to the board said to our first timers at the convention, “Welcome to the house that built me.”
And I feel that way about the Organized Blind Movement, the National Federation of the Blind. A lot of what I have learned and the values that I have been able to build have come from the amazing opportunity to engage with a big diverse group of people who believe it’s respectable to be blind, and have the faith that blindness is not the thing that’s going to hold us back. That has made a huge difference in my life.
Part of that has also meant recognizing that blind people are a cross-section,, and that some blind people are going to be getting it wrong, and they’re going to get it wrong even in our organization.
And a number of those people who have had a very positive influence on my life have been elected leaders who are blind people who say, at the end of the day, you’re elected by blind people. It’s got to be about the group of blind people. And so recognizing that sometimes, we have to take on very hard questions, hard things, and it’s truly an experience that I can’t really put the right words to.
But what I can say is for those people who decide to put their heart into the organized blind movement, I can guarantee you with 100% confidence that it will continue to change and shape your life over time.
Now, you got to a convention before I did because I didn’t get to one until 96.
Jonathan: Right.
Mark: But it’s like that old hard stone that’s continuing to be shaped and reshaped by the waterfall. It’s a great thing.
But very humbling what you said. And I’m just so thrilled about the things that we’re going to be able to do together to elevate even more blind people to the understanding that they can live the lives they want.
Jonathan: Absolutely.
And I hope this provides some assurance. Because I think when some people heard that Living Blindfully was closing, they took from that that I was somehow going to disappear.
I’ll be around, all right. I’ll be on the social media, in podcast in some form, and we’re going to build these new initiatives together as an organized blind movement. And as they say, it takes a village. So it’s going to be a team effort.
I want to thank you very much first, for this incredible opportunity. I am very excited. And also, for coming on Living Blindfully and explaining this to our community. It’s been great chatting with you.
Mark: Yeah, absolutely. Been great. Thank you for the opportunity.
I’m not sorry that we don’t have more specifics on all of the things that will happen. But I would say in some ways, it’s a blank slate, and the Living Blindfully and broader blind community will help us fill it in. I think that means it’s going to be a bright future.
Jonathan: That’s NFB president, Mark Riccobono.
What was that song that came out, I think late 1985, early 86 maybe by a group called Timbuk3. And it says something like, the future’s so bright, I gotta wear Ray-Ban Meta Smart Glasses.
Oh, it wasn’t quite that. It was something like that.
Anyway, the future looks bright. I’m very excited about this. What an opportunity to work with such a great group of people to keep changing the world, and I hope that you will be a part of it as well.
We’ll be back on our normal cycle with a full 2-hour episode.
And of course, a reminder that next week, we also have another midweek edition right after the Apple event that’s going to happen US time on the 9th of September, and we’ll have our crew going through this from a blindness perspective. So do join us for that.
Since the podcast is concluding at the end of the month, a reminder that all the episodes are being published without any kind of delay for plus subscribers, and we’re no longer accepting new listener contributions, just so we can ensure that we get through the ones that we’ve already received.
Remember that when you’re out there with your guide dog, you’ve harnessed success. And with your cane, you’re able.
[music]